PSA: Changes to how you will get billed for electricity starting next summer... (Phoenix: low income, renting)

[gamebird98]

[gamebird98]

Just a curious question....would it be cheaper to run a generator during "peak times"? I know the initial cost of the generator is a factor (many people have them for power outages) but with the inexpensive cost of natural gas.....may be an less expensive alternative. Not very knowledgeable about it, just wondering.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Really? I have to ask...but what is there to like about it?



Yup, pretty much this!

It's dirt cheap off peak. Much lower than a regular time of use plan. I can keep my ac at 70 degrees at night, run the spa heaters, do whatever for relative pennies on the dollar. I also pre-chill the house all morning so get to sit there in glorious coolness until noon. Based on APS analysis I save about 20% over what I would pay if I lived that way on straight time of use.

The game is to keep demand down during the peak. That really is not hard. It's pretty much the same as time of use restrictions on our lives - timer on the water heater, don't use the big things on peak (ac excepted of course). It is easy to make a "mistake" though, run the dryer past noon for example, and you pay dearly if you do. That one load of wash will cost about 30 bucks in added demand charge! Seriously. I had a load controller at one time (they were required and standard on homes in Estrella when I moved here as was a demand plan), but it conked out. Load controllers can b set to whatever demand you want and will shut off/stop things from running automatically. I suppose APS will start selling and installing them again if (once)this plan passes.

FYI: I have been on a demand plan for about 20 years. My average on-peak demand in winter is about 2.5KW and in summer around 7Kw. 2400 sf all electric house with 5 ton ac.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

It's dirt cheap off peak. Much lower than a regular time of use plan.

Used to be much cheaper. I know the he current TOU fff-Peak rate is about 6.1¢ (taxes), as you said if you're on Demand now, it's quite a bit cheaper I believe. The new plan is bumping that up to 8.1¢.

The game is to keep demand down during the peak. That really is not hard. It's pretty much the same as time of use restrictions on our lives - timer on the water heater, don't use the big things on peak (ac excepted of course). It is easy to make a "mistake" though, run the dryer past noon for example, and you pay dearly if you do. That one load of wash will cost about 30 bucks in added demand charge! Seriously. I had a load controller at one time (they were required and standard on homes in Estrella when I moved here as was a demand plan), but it conked out. Load controllers can b set to whatever demand you want and will shut off/stop things from running automatically. I suppose APS will start selling and installing them again if (once)this plan passes.

I know it's possible to control it if you really want, or if you install devices that shut off your appliances...I guess Im more of the mentality of not wanting APS to dictate how and when I use power. Then again Im spoiled with solar as we're on the Standard plan now...with no Time-of-Use or Demand at all so we can use anything anytime. Our pool pump runs during the day for example.

FYI: I have been on a demand plan for about 20 years. My average on-peak demand in winter is about 2.5KW and in summer around 7Kw. 2400 sf all electric house with 5 ton ac.

Funny thing, at our old house we were on a Demand plan as well. Not on purpose and never really paid too much attention to it. I have a spreadsheet of all of our usage for every month for about 5 years and looking back, we had summer months with 11.3kW of Demand and that was in a 1880 sq ft house. So that's what I'm comparing it to...if you actually live how you want to live (like we did in the old house), that's the kind of Demand I think people will see.

FYI for anyone here, you can actually go out to your APS meter now and see what your on-peak Demand is, even if you are not on a Demand plan. APS has been keeping tabs on this number for years.

What you're looking for is the "sixth" screen in the cycle, with the first screen being the time. It goes like this:

​u04r03 ​firmware version and revision number
u03r01 ​radio micro-controller firmware version and revision number
t11.56 TC​ ​Time and recording tier
01546​ ​total kWh
00451​ on-peak kWh​
​005.131 on-peak demand total demand​
00000​ super peak demand
01005​ ​off-peak kWh
007.031​ off-peak demand​
F00003​ internal meter information used by field technician​
3r6437​ LAN registration used by field technician​




Mine is showing 6.6kW for this month, but that's with solar which is kind of crazy. With this new rate plan, if I wasn't grandfathered in, my monthly APS bill would be ~$139.00 vs the $22.00/month I pay now.
(Meter looks a little difference because its a bi-directional solar net meter)

[JGMotorsport64]

Well, I'm glad I have SRP! I go out of my way not to deal with APS. SRP has been pretty decent to me over the years.

[Bird Street]

I had demand rates (EC-1, ECT-1 and ECT-1R) starting in the mid-80's with APS. My demand was under 3.0 all summer, and the house was kept at the temp of a trauma center with a very low bill. This works very well in a dual energy home when you use natural gas for hot water, dryer and cooking. I had and still have an electric heat pump and heated the house for next to nothing. I had one gas range and an electric one for off-peak. I like sleeping under blankets year round. I was very careful about not cooking late in the afternoon weekdays. The gas range created so much heat in the kitchen that I used the microwave and a crockpot often. It was difficult to explain to people how to use the rate. "Demand" was difficult to explain. Sadly, the bills started larger in later years. APS would do a rate comparison every year. I was saving $1000./ year. The perception was that SRP was cheaper than APS. That wasn't true for me. I now live in an SRP neighborhood and love the flood irrigation but don't think much of their electric rates. It's not worth messing with their alternative rates because there isn't much difference.

[kell490]

Where do you get 19% increase? how can you even calculate that if you don't know what someones demand charge will be. If you don't want to buy electricity get off the grid go solar and battery power? Your selling solar which is basically tax payer funded business people just don't see it on their tax bill at the end of the year at least APS has a bill they send you.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by kell490

Where do you get 19% increase? how can you even calculate that if you don't know what someones demand charge will be. If you don't want to buy electricity get off the grid go solar and battery power? Your selling solar which is basically tax payer funded business people just don't see it on their tax bill at the end of the year at least APS has a bill they send you.

I don't like the rate increase built into this, but I get it with APS demand rates. The solar customers are cranking the ACs mid afternoon and their systems can't provide that kind of current so they rely on the grid. APS has to purchase power at the highest rates during that time and the solar people basically freeload off the rest of us because they don't pay an around the clock rate that compensates for the higher generating and transmission costs needed for peak demand. Demand surcharges will go a long way to make them pay their own freight. Why an 8% avg overall rate increase in a non-inflationary economy with near zero interest rates and cheap fossil fuel remains to be explained.

[timothyaw]

As a person that lives in NV and AZ(rent) people moan and complain about NVenergy (I do as well). But after hearing about this from my girlfriend and reading this, we have it easy (for now perhaps) compared to you guys. Currently in NV I'm not on any Demand or TOU plan and I pay 11.9ish KwH.

I'm sure NVenergy is looking at this very closely. It sounds like our PUC (same as your ACC) does a tiny bit better, but also has their share of cronies as well.

[Potential_Landlord]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I don't like the rate increase built into this, but I get it with APS demand rates. The solar customers are cranking the ACs mid afternoon and their systems can't provide that kind of current so they rely on the grid. APS has to purchase power at the highest rates during that time and the solar people basically freeload off the rest of us because they don't pay an around the clock rate that compensates for the higher generating and transmission costs needed for peak demand. Demand surcharges will go a long way to make them pay their own freight. Why an 8% avg overall rate increase in a non-inflationary economy with near zero interest rates and cheap fossil fuel remains to be explained.

You have a point. The net-metering creates an unfair advantage for solar owners. You get to abuse the grid as your personal year-long battery. Also, this problem along with the difference in the daily peak solar production vs. grid demand peak grows exponentially as you increase solar linearly, so the problems will really escalate. We can see this in Hawaii and California where there is more solar than here. Storage can resolve some of the issues and that's the future IMO: have your own battery backup rather than net-metering.