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I agree, I'm not saying the Demand charge is not necessarily fair but what I don't understand is why have different rates for different groups of people?
Anyone that goes solar after July of next week will only have one plan to choose from, the R-3, which has a $16.40/kW fee on-peak during the summer. The actual kWh rate is $0.09. So then does that not mean that APS has put a value on what they think a kW is worth and what they think a kWh is worth? Why is a kW and a kWh worth differently to a non-solar customer? The R-1 for example only charges $6.40/kW but the kWh rate is higher.
Of course this is kind of rhetorical because I assume I know why. Solar customers do have an effect on the demand, it's less than non-solar customers, but APS basically wants to make the same money.
I didn't know you work with solar, so thank you for the disclaimer.
I've owned solar equipment for the past 4 years. I recently received a letter from APS stating the house is grandfathered into whatever "structure" they're scheming.
I fail to see how the non-solar customers are subsidizing the solar customers. If all solar customers didn't produce/use solar energy, the demand for electricity would be higher and prices would be higher too.
As far as I'm concerned, the ACC is full of crooks and APS is FOS. APS means to put the squeeze on each and every customer.
I didn't know you work with solar, so thank you for the disclaimer.
I've owned solar equipment for the past 4 years. I recently received a letter from APS stating the house is grandfathered into whatever "structure" they're scheming.
I fail to see how the non-solar customers are subsidizing the solar customers. If all solar customers didn't produce/use solar energy, the demand for electricity would be higher and prices would be higher too.
As far as I'm concerned, the ACC is full of crooks and APS is FOS. APS means to put the squeeze on each and every customer.
Thanks to everybody for the info, though.
I too got a letter stating that I am grandfathered in but I am not exactly sure to which part they mean?
HX_Guy, can you clarify that part for those of us who already have solar?
Are they really paying retail, or is it semantics?
APS isn't actually paying anything for the over production stored as credits from solar owners, it just goes back to the grid. It's not like solar owners get a check or bill credit at retail. If you look at it that way, APS is essentially getting free power which they can now sell at retail price to the neighbors.
The retail part, in their argument, is that now when I need those credits back, I also get them back for "free", and I'm not paying APS for them...which is a loss of retail electricity for them...hence them saying they pay "retail" for the credits.
And this is just for net metering, using the power I give to them...which they essentially "rented". Any true overproduction that is not used by the person who backfed to the grid does actually get purchased by APS at the end of the year in the form of a bill credit. And APS pays a whopping 2.9¢ per kWh (and they charge 6.5¢ and 24.5¢ when they sell it).
So again, they aren't really paying solar customers retail for the power.
Most importantly would be to align the daily solar production with the demand curve. Battery back-up can do this so you have power two hours longer after the setting sun decreases production rapidly. I think that ould eliminate almost all issues with solar. In a couple to a few years at the latest the battery prices are hopefully down enough. Btw this would make sense even regardless of solar: you store enough power to get you through the 3-8 window. Essentially we won't need the "on-peak" price surge any more.
My prediction is power prices will be down significantly in 5-10 years, and permanently so.
I too got a letter stating that I am grandfathered in but I am not exactly sure to which part they mean?
HX_Guy, can you clarify that part for those of us who already have solar?
Sure. The grandfathering is for the current plan you are on, but not the rates, aside from the grid fee.
So, if you are currently on the Time Advantage 7pm - Noon plan, then you get to stay on that plan for 20 years from your interconnection date. If you currently have a $0 grid fee, it will stay $0. If you went solar after the $0.70/kW grid fee went into effect, then you stay on that fee.
What you don't get grandfathered in for is the rates though, both on and off peak, and both rates are going up 19.6%. If you have a full offset system, then you don't care, you are not buying any power from APS anyway so they could raise it 50% and you wouldn't care. If you went with a peak shaver system that only offsets your peak power and some of your off peak, but you are currently buying a large chunk of your off peak power from APS, than that portion will be going up by quite a bit percentage wise. That is actually why Ive always advocated to solar customers to go full offset...you don't save as much today as a peak shaver, but you are taking APS out of the equation more or less.
Most importantly would be to align the daily solar production with the demand curve. Battery back-up can do this so you have power two hours longer after the setting sun decreases production rapidly. I think that ould eliminate almost all issues with solar. In a couple to a few years at the latest the battery prices are hopefully down enough. Btw this would make sense even regardless of solar: you store enough power to get you through the 3-8 window. Essentially we won't need the "on-peak" price surge any more.
My prediction is power prices will be down significantly in 5-10 years, and permanently so.
I've heard people are already doing with with the Tesla battery. They are charging the battery during off peak hours and then using the power from the battery during on peak hours. Pretty genius.
It would be hard to really estimate without knowing what your demand has and will be. What plan are yo on with APS now?
You can also go look at your meter and see what your demand this billing cycle is and you should be able to get some rough idea of what it could mean.
I took my May data off APS, from the 1st through the 31st not the meter cycle, and plugged it into an excel sheet. I actually came out lower for May on the new plans compared to both the Time Advantage and the Combo Advantage, the current Time Advantage plan with a demand charge, on both R-1 and R-2. R-3 came out lower than Time Advantage and $0.30 more than the combo. I'm going to do last years June, July, and August into my excel and see what I come up with.
May 2016
Time Advantage: $268.71 - Highest
Combined Advantage: $260.93
R-1: $253.13 - Lowest
R-2: $256.90
R-3: $261.23
June 2015
Time Advantage: $389.93 - Highest
Combined Advantage: $341.07
R-1: $354.16
R-2: $360.26
R-3: $339.60 - Lowest
July 2015
Time Advantage: $408.10 - Highest
Combined Advantage: $359.29
R-1: $374.85
R-2: $381.34
R-3: $358.28 - Lowest
August 2015
Time Advantage: $437.57 - Highest
Combined Advantage: $374.38
R-1: $395.78
R-2: $402.42
R-3: $372.58 - Lowest
First I need to note that the R plans I didn't take the new peak times I just used what on/off info they already had which was from noon-7 pm so the R plans should actually be a tad bit high though not enough for me to sift through the info and dig it out myself. Also, I should say some days we run the dryer during peak hours (which will end now that there is a peak demand coming) and we certainly don't try to reduce what we are using in the slightest, I open the garage door to check the mail for example.
This info was very easy for me to slap together with the way you can download the info right off the APS website. I did include the daily rate too just to make sure I added everything.
I edited June because I made a small error on the Basic Service Charge, I had it at 31 days and it is 30 days (selected the wrong column to use) and I added the picture of my excel.
Last edited by AZ Manager; 06-09-2016 at 03:22 AM..
Reason: Adding last 3 months
AZ Manager...did you include all the taxes and fees? How did you go about figuring them out?
Also, how did you figure out what your Demand will be for each month? Are you currently on a Demand plan and used the figures from your account history?
AZ Manager...did you include all the taxes and fees? How did you go about figuring them out?
Also, how did you figure out what your Demand will be for each month? Are you currently on a Demand plan and used the figures from your account history?
That includes the on and off peak rates (see my last post for the disclaimer on the R on-peak data), the demand charge (APS keeps track of this even if you aren't on a demand plan you can easily get the info), and the basic service charge. Basically everything in the rate proposal of relevance to this conversation.
Oh if it was only that simple. But I see that APS' marketing is working...and a lot of people are going to do exactly what you did and think the new plans aren't so bad.
Unless you did the same simple calculation on your old bills, then you aren't comparing apples to apples. If you took our actual billed amount, then you need to add more to your new numbers.
The Basic Service Charge and the Energy Charges do not include the following:
Environmental benefits surcharge
Federal environmental improvement surcharge
Power supply adjustment
Federal transmission and ancillary services
Federal transmission cost adjustment
LFCR adjustor
Regulatory assessment
State sales tax
County sales tax
City sales tax
Franchise fee
Those add up to quite a bit. If you already factored them in, then you're probably pretty accurate, but it sounds like you not have. For example, Looking at an old bill of mine where I was on the Time-of-Use 7:00PM - Noon plan, there were 30 days in the billing cycle and I used 625 kWh on peak and 2045 kWh off peak. If I take those numbers and multiply them with APS' rate sheet ($0.556/day for Basic Service Charge and $0.2447/kWh on-peak and $0.06118/kWh off-peak) I get a total of $309.46. In reality, my bill was $369.59 due to all the extra taxes and fees. Practically 20% more.
EDIT: I just now saw the attached spreadsheet you included. So yes, it looks like you did just simply multiply the rates without includes the taxes and fees. As you saw, mine came out 20% more once you add those in.
Plus, you're comparing the new TOU rate plans (which will no longer be available). Do the same math but with today's TOU rates vs the new Demand rates and see what you come up with (I haven't done it myself, so I'm actually curious) but seeing the the new TOU plans are going up substantially, the results should be interesting.
Oh if it was only that simple. But I see that APS' marketing is working...and a lot of people are going to do exactly what you did and think the new plans aren't so bad.
Unless you did the same simple calculation on your old bills, then you aren't comparing apples to apples. If you took our actual billed amount, then you need to add more to your new numbers.
The Basic Service Charge and the Energy Charges do not include the following:
Environmental benefits surcharge
Federal environmental improvement surcharge
Power supply adjustment
Federal transmission and ancillary services
Federal transmission cost adjustment
LFCR adjustor
Regulatory assessment
State sales tax
County sales tax
City sales tax
Franchise fee
Those add up to quite a bit. If you already factored them in, then you're probably pretty accurate, but it sounds like you not have. For example, Looking at an old bill of mine where I was on the Time-of-Use 7:00PM - Noon plan, there were 30 days in the billing cycle and I used 625 kWh on peak and 2045 kWh off peak. If I take those numbers and multiply them with APS' rate sheet ($0.556/day for Basic Service Charge and $0.2447/kWh on-peak and $0.06118/kWh off-peak) I get a total of $309.46. In reality, my bill was $369.59 due to all the extra taxes and fees. Practically 20% more.
EDIT: I just now saw the attached spreadsheet you included. So yes, it looks like you did just simply multiply the rates without includes the taxes and fees. As you saw, mine came out 20% more once you add those in.
Plus, you're comparing the new TOU rate plans (which will no longer be available). Do the same math but with today's TOU rates vs the new Demand rates and see what you come up with (I haven't done it myself, so I'm actually curious) but seeing the the new TOU plans are going up substantially, the results should be interesting.
Taxes have no bearing on the conversation though so I'm not sure why you are going on about them. When the sale amount goes up or down so does the sales tax and the tax rates are not controlled by APS.
I used the rates I was referred to when I asked if I could easily compare to estimate the impact the changes would have. If there are different rates than in that link I was directed to let me know where to find them and I will make the change and post the new results.
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