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That's the way it ALREADY IS for dispensaries. You really should educate yourself before you speak on something.
The cartel?? WTH are you talking about?? I would like to see some facts before I comment on that, but I could only guess; with how much more product has come to the market locally, how much better the quality is, and how much more we could get if grow rights weren't so restrictive, that it would definitely hurt the cartels. So now you don't want to legalize recreational marijuana in AZ because the cartels sell coke and heroin?? WTH does that have anything to do with it?
What economic boom is going to happen where businesses are going to go to Mexico?? What kind of logic is that? You sure do want to get rid of a lot of things that legal recreational marijuana would hurt, but that's not good enough to get a start on it, you want it gone in a snap or nothing..
Nobody is overreacting here but you. We are having a discussion, and you feel the need to be a jack-al, and not have a reasonable discussion about it. You bring up incorrect and ignorant thoughts. You want to fix a bunch of problems but refuse to make a start. You keep bringing up things that don't relate and shouldn't matter here; and again, NO, this is not about abortion, guns, or gay marriage, sounds like you're the one who needs to chill out. Maybe you could stop smoking so much though, it sounds like its effected your thought process. You seem to be unable to make a solid point or stick to the topic at hand.
I said for recreational. Maybe you should give me a source on the legislation saying only Arizona-grown weed can be sold here that's on the ballot that matters to you so much, since you are the one here claiming that won't change. I am asking for a source.
You are the one calling me a jackal, unreasonable, telling me I should get educated, lots of capitalized words, using lots of question marks and smilies to get your point across that you are frustrated with my thoughts. If anyone is overreacting is you, I can sense it in your tone. The worst I ever said was "You should smoke a blunt and calm down". You are saying weed is ruining my thinking process and therefore my intelligence. Your ad hominems are only going to make your argument worse by the way. I never once attacked your character but you seem to rely on it repeatedly to try to get your point across. If the best you can do is result to ad hominems then you are already losing. I suggest researching logical fallacies when it comes to debating. It will help you win some arguments.
I want a healthy business climate for the marijuana industry, to reduce the influence of the Mexican drug cartel and illegal marijuana (never mentioned coke and heroin or other illegal drugs, nice try though) as much as physically possible. High entrance fees, which will be carried onto the consumer and will encourage people to go for the cheaper black market. The black market will always exist, but we should work to reduce it as much as possible.
You should look up what the word "analogy" means. Then maybe you can understand what I'm saying when I am bringing up other social freedoms that we have in this country that fall under a lot of the same scrutinies of people always looking to take away our freedoms and/or capitalize on them. My family and I own a gun store if you didn't read that earlier, I know what happens when unfavorable legislation passes since I own a business that is part of a hotly debated political issue, much like marijuana. It hurts us, your neighbors, more than anything else. You are seeing the bigger picture, which you and I agree on, that we should legalize the plant. But you aren't looking at the details, on how these little sentences will affect our lives. That's where you and I are different. I see what happens when the government try to pass gun control, the Republicans come running and crying to my store and buy my products. Californians move here and the first thing they do, after getting a driver's license, and they buy a gun. But eventually this peak of my business ends after the bubble has burst, and it hurts me. The big stores like Cabela's can handle these things much better than my mom and pop store can and I, your neighbor, will suffer. Less businesses take more of the market share (as there will always be a demand for weed, right?) meaning more money is going to less people. It's a concentration of wealth and market power. We will have Weed Walmarts here with this legislation. I don't want that here, I want a freer market that isn't completely covered by a couple chains, just enough to fly under the radar of an oligarch or a monopoly and not forcibly broken up by the government.
I'm not going to repeat myself. I'll make my point once again clear because you aren't seeing it at all. The point is above by the way so go read the bold. I seem to strike quite the nerve with you which is why you have resulted to attacking my character and my qualities, if you can't prove to me that very high entrance fees and business costs won't encourage black markets (which we have a big problem with being a border state and all) and if you can't prove that this legislation will encourage a safe and healthy capitalistic environment for the marijuana industry to flourish me, then please stop addressing me.
I am more than willing to address anyone who is reasonable in arguing with me, does not result to ad hominems, and can refute the points I am making. You, so far, have done nothing to refute my claims that this can create more influence of the Mexican drug cartel and other sources of black market marijuana than we could have in legalization (via high business costs). If someone quotes me in a post from here on out in this thread, then I want them to refute that. Otherwise it's just rubbish.
You address some very valid points, many of which I was not aware of. And I definitely respect and understand your standpoint on Arizona's position being a border state with cartel and black market vulnerabilities. However, I have to wonder how many will vote in favor of legalization in 2016 simply to take the burden of having a felony offense for possession in the state of Arizona.
New Mexico has legal medical marijuana dispensaries, however we don't have legal recreational marijuana on the ballot this year. But the penalty for being caught with marijuana possession; be it bought from the black market, or a road trip up to Colorado doesn't carry nearly as severe of penalty here as it does in Arizona, which is a life altering penalty. That's a heavy burden to carry and probably reason enough for many to vote in favor of having the punishment fit the crime rather than the current status quo in Arizona. Then sort out the other details with revisions later.
Thank you for being respectful, first of all.
I absolutely agree that Arizona is too harsh on marijuana when it comes to sentencing. We are also too harsh with alcohol--outside of DUIs--in my opinion. It's excessive. While our for-profit prison system is asinine especially here in Arizona, a Ducey favorite (he loves for-profit prisons), I think most Arizonans will consider all aspects to a legalization before making an educated vote, at least I hope so. I think too many people see something they like without reading the small font before voting, and I encourage all educated voting even if it goes against what I think. I'm not always the popular opinion, especially in this thread apparently.
Arizona seems to love power-hungry law enforcement agencies, Arpaio is enough of an explanation of that in my humble opinion. I think the prison system will make up for this loss with higher punishments in other areas, I really doubt the state government would ever let for-profit prisons take a loss this big. They will make up for it in another area on some other poor soul. So even with legalization I think the government will find other ways to support the prisons... At least that's what I think.
I said for recreational. Maybe you should give me a source on the legislation saying only Arizona-grown weed can be sold here that's on the ballot that matters to you so much, since you are the one here claiming that won't change. I am asking for a source.
Its not going to change with the new legislation. Look it up on your own, its the way its been since medical marijuana FIRST STARTED here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
You are the one calling me a jackal, unreasonable, telling me I should get educated, lots of capitalized words, using lots of question marks and smilies to get your point across that you are frustrated with my thoughts. If anyone is overreacting is you, I can sense it in your tone. The worst I ever said was "You should smoke a blunt and calm down" .
What you said was "Why don't you smoke a blunt and chill out? Sounds like you could use it".
If you thought you were right, you would own it and stick with the truth. Sounds like a personal attack to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
You are saying weed is ruining my thinking process and therefore my intelligence. Your ad hominems are only going to make your argument worse by the way. I never once attacked your character but you seem to rely on it repeatedly to try to get your point across. If the best you can do is result to ad hominems then you are already losing. I suggest researching logical fallacies when it comes to debating. It will help you win some arguments..
No, I didn't say that. You figured that one out all by yourself. No I'm not attacking you, but this is just another distraction from you not making a valid point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
I want a healthy business climate for the marijuana industry, to reduce the influence of the Mexican drug cartel and illegal marijuana (never mentioned coke and heroin or other illegal drugs, nice try though) as much as physically possible. High entrance fees, which will be carried onto the consumer and will encourage people to go for the cheaper black market. The black market will always exist, but we should work to reduce it as much as possible.
You should look up the bond required to get a license. Search for that when you look up the other rules about a dispensary that you are unfamiliar with and contradict what you are saying. If you are not talking about other drugs, then will you finally explain why you feel the need to keep bringing up the drug cartels??? Yes they have drugs, and like you said yes we are a border state. You do realize there are about 40 other states that the cartels are trying to supply, and that nearly all of it is just passing through?
Again, we already have a market for it. The only possible way this would help the cartels is if somehow the supply couldn't keep up with the demand. Once that happens I'm certain people would get it from CO and CA before Mexico. Do you have anything to back that up or a reason to say otherwise? Or are you just going to keep saying "no, cartels are bad."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
You should look up what the word "analogy" means. Then maybe you can understand what I'm saying when I am bringing up other social freedoms that we have in this country that fall under a lot of the same scrutinies of people always looking to take away our freedoms and/or capitalize on them. ..
Get off your horse, another ignorant personal attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
My family and I own a gun store if you didn't read that earlier, I know what happens when unfavorable legislation passes since I own a business that is part of a hotly debated political issue, much like marijuana. It hurts us, your neighbors, more than anything else. You are seeing the bigger picture, which you and I agree on, that we should legalize the plant. But you aren't looking at the details, on how these little sentences will affect our lives. That's where you and I are different. I see what happens when the government try to pass gun control, the Republicans come running and crying to my store and buy my products. Californians move here and the first thing they do, after getting a driver's license, and they buy a gun. But eventually this peak of my business ends after the bubble has burst, and it hurts me. The big stores like Cabela's can handle these things much better than my mom and pop store can and I, your neighbor, will suffer. Less businesses take more of the market share (as there will always be a demand for weed, right?) meaning more money is going to less people. It's a concentration of wealth and market power. We will have Weed Walmarts here with this legislation. I don't want that here, I want a freer market that isn't completely covered by a couple chains, just enough to fly under the radar of an oligarch or a monopoly and not forcibly broken up by the government.
That's whats going on right now. The only way to change that is going to be to allow it to either open up in more places or allow people to grow it themselves so they can keep there own money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
I'm not going to repeat myself I'll make my point once again clear because you aren't seeing it at all. The point is above by the way so. go read the bold. I seem to strike quite the nerve with you which is why you have resulted to attacking my character and my qualities, if you can't prove to me that very high entrance fees and business costs won't encourage black markets (which we have a big problem with being a border state and all) and if you can't prove that this legislation will encourage a safe and healthy capitalistic environment for the marijuana industry to flourish me, then please stop addressing me.
Another personal attack without making a point. You talk about black markets and cartels as if they are the same thing. Once its legal for req, it won't be a black market, it will be a free market. People are going to go where they have options for variety and quality, that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be going to a business to get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
I am more than willing to address anyone who is reasonable in arguing with me, does not result to ad hominems, and can refute the points I am making. You, so far, have done nothing to refute my claims that this can create more influence of the Mexican drug cartel and other sources of black market marijuana than we could have in legalization (via high business costs). If someone quotes me in a post from here on out in this thread, then I want them to refute that. Otherwise it's just rubbish.
No, actually I have, and you haven't answered mine. Instead of doing it YOU made personal attacks in every paragraph you wrote. You are ignorant about the issues at hand and the issues they come from that have been around for several years.
PS. Heres how much of your response wasn't just a personal attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
I want a healthy business climate for the marijuana industry, to reduce the influence of the Mexican drug cartel and illegal marijuana High entrance fees, which will be carried onto the consumer and will encourage people to go for the cheaper black market. The black market will always exist, but we should work to reduce it as much as possible.
Less businesses take more of the market share (as there will always be a demand for weed, right?) meaning more money is going to less people. It's a concentration of wealth and market power. We will have Weed Walmarts here with this legislation. I don't want that here, I want a freer market that isn't completely covered by a couple chains, just enough to fly under the radar of an oligarch or a monopoly and not forcibly broken up by the government
if you can't prove to me that very high entrance fees and business costs won't encourage black markets (which we have a big problem with being a border state and all) and if you can't prove that this legislation will encourage a safe and healthy capitalistic environment for the marijuana industry to flourish me
my claims that this can create more influence of the Mexican drug cartel and other sources of black market marijuana than we could have in legalization (via high business costs).
The only way to change that is going to be to allow it to either open up in more places or allow people to grow it themselves so they can keep there own money.
You thought all of my post was a personal attack? Now here's your first personal attack against you coming from me... Pathetic... Learn what an insult is instead of constructive criticism. Please tell me how "Maybe you should smoke a blunt and chill out. Sounds like you can use it." is any way the same as calling me as unreasonable, a jackal, ignorant, uneducated, etc. Really, how is telling someone to calm down in any way the same as calling someone ignorant or uneducated. You're a keyboard warrior at this point. If you want me to actually vote for passing this legislation you should learn to treat me with respect, calling me ignorant and uneducated only makes YOU look like an ***hole and it ruins it for you, not for me. In fact you treating this way is doing the near opposite of convincing me to vote for it. I might just vote against it in spite of you.
Yes, open up more places and allow people to grow it themselves if they'd like. I've been saying this the whole time. Please tell me how high entrance fees for both suppliers and dispensaries, favoring dispensaries who were able to get into the highly restricted MMJ market, does anything to support the growth of new business and lower costs through healthy market competition? I've been saying this the whole time but you have focused on emotionally-charged words instead of logic. All the cheapskates who smoke weed, and there's plenty of, will take their business to cartels, very easily accessible to us as a border state if business is too restrictive and drives up the costs. Remember businesses will put all their costs on the consumer, it's simple economics. People will break the law to stay cheap, if people do it for crappy guns, they will do it for crappy weed. If we can keep the legalized weed prices as low as possible, through healthy market competition and reduced entry costs for dispensaries and suppliers, then we will see less of an influence of the cartel. The cartel runs from Mexico, through us and the other three border states, and into the rest of the country. We are one of the first stops, Arizona along with the other three border states will be more effective on stopping Mexican drug cartel influence on marijuana with legalization than anyone else. It will create a safer border, something I think all Arizonans can agree on. Weed Walmarts with a capitalization and unfair market share of the local area because of legislation is NOT healthy business. It's wealth concentration to those few. I don't want that here, I want very positive economic growth in Arizona.
You clearly don't know the underground market. That's fine, but don't keep shrugging it off and act like it doesn't cause problems here. The drug cartels is the reason why so many people support Trump and want a flipping wall. The drug cartels are part of what made Mexico into the corrupt shape its in. You do know that we, the United States as a whole, are one of the biggest markets for the drug cartels? Mexicans who want a better life try to come here to escape that, and people are so against that they get Trump to be the GOP nominee. I think you fail to realize how much our legislation affects other nations and that's why we should be aiming for educated and active voting. People who read legislations before making a decision.
Anyway, not only are you fairly unpleasant, you have not sourced how this legislation will foster a healthy business market like I have asked. And since I asked to no longer be addressed if you did not do that in my previous post, I will be blocking you. Have a good night, I suppose.
Prickly there aevtwo separate campaigns with different goals just google it
You can't claim something and then not provide the information yourself. It's a logical fallacy. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of different websites will come up if I did "just Google it"? I want to look at the same thing you are looking at so we are on the same page. So we have the same information!
You thought all of my post was a personal attack? Now here's your first personal attack against you coming from me... Pathetic... Learn what an insult is instead of constructive criticism. Please tell me how "Maybe you should smoke a blunt and chill out. Sounds like you can use it." is any way the same as calling me as unreasonable, a jackal, ignorant, uneducated, etc. Really, how is telling someone to calm down in any way the same as calling someone ignorant or uneducated. You're a keyboard warrior at this point. If you want me to actually vote for passing this legislation you should learn to treat me with respect, calling me ignorant and uneducated only makes YOU look like an ***hole and it ruins it for you, not for me. In fact you treating this way is doing the near opposite of convincing me to vote for it. I might just vote against it in spite of you.
Sounds like your feelings were hurt. Its not a personal attack to say you were ignorant, which you are on this issue. I never said uneducated, only thought it. Treat you with respect, really? I didn't tell you to go do drugs because there was something wrong with you, and gonna vote against you because of spite.. How funny. Heres a link you should read. Children reject inequity out of spite | Biology Letters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
Yes, open up more places and allow people to grow it themselves if they'd like. I've been saying this the whole time. Please tell me how high entrance fees for both suppliers and dispensaries, favoring dispensaries who were able to get into the highly restricted MMJ market, does anything to support the growth of new business and lower costs through healthy market competition? I've been saying this the whole time but you have focused on emotionally-charged words instead of logic. All the cheapskates who smoke weed, and there's plenty of, will take their business to cartels, very easily accessible to us as a border state if business is too restrictive and drives up the costs. Remember businesses will put all their costs on the consumer, it's simple economics. People will break the law to stay cheap, if people do it for crappy guns, they will do it for crappy weed. If we can keep the legalized weed prices as low as possible, through healthy market competition and reduced entry costs for dispensaries and suppliers, then we will see less of an influence of the cartel. The cartel runs from Mexico, through us and the other three border states, and into the rest of the country. We are one of the first stops, Arizona along with the other three border states will be more effective on stopping Mexican drug cartel influence on marijuana with legalization than anyone else. It will create a safer border, something I think all Arizonans can agree on. Weed Walmarts with a capitalization and unfair market share of the local area because of legislation is NOT healthy business. It's wealth concentration to those few. I don't want that here, I want very positive economic growth in Arizona. .
No, its really not. You're basing your assumption on you think all marijuana users are "cheap skate lawbreakers". That's definitely not true, not sure where, how, or why to even to start to debate that, but that is extremely ignorant. Legalizing recreational marijuana and border patrol are two completely different issues. There is such a small relation comparatively it doesn't make sense why you keep bringing this up. Nor have you answered my rebuttal as to why it doesn't make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear
You clearly don't know the underground market. That's fine, but don't keep shrugging it off and act like it doesn't cause problems here. The drug cartels is the reason why so many people support Trump and want a flipping wall. The drug cartels are part of what made Mexico into the corrupt shape its in. You do know that we, the United States as a whole, are one of the biggest markets for the drug cartels? Mexicans who want a better life try to come here to escape that, and people are so against that they get Trump to be the GOP nominee. I think you fail to realize how much our legislation affects other nations and that's why we should be aiming for educated and active voting. People who read legislations before making a decision.
Anyway, not only are you fairly unpleasant, you have not sourced how this legislation will foster a healthy business market like I have asked. And since I asked to no longer be addressed if you did not do that in my previous post, I will be blocking you. Have a good night, I suppose.
Again with the drug cartels.. and you bring up another hot-button issue with people that doesn't matter, and doesn't matter here.
You keep saying I don't understand things after I have made a point which you continuously avoid responding to or backing up your own claim, then expect everyone else to post links and information for you. Yet I keep answering every point you are trying to make in an effort to get a conversation going, which I'm clearly not getting or going to get from you.
You can't claim something and then not provide the information yourself. It's a logical fallacy. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of different websites will come up if I did "just Google it"? I want to look at the same thing you are looking at so we are on the same page. So we have the same information!
I wasnt going to keep posting since im 99% sure this person is part of that radical failed group thats against this. This is the nonsensical arguments they spew and try to brainwash people with. But they are "for" legalization. Yea......
Anyway. You keep bringing up the business aspect of this whole thing. Which is odd since you clearly have little understanding of business in general or this particular business.
How much do you think it costs to start a commercial grow even if state fees were $0? LARGE amounts of money. The license fees are the least of someones concerns when getting into this. Someone isnt looking to get into that industry and then seeing the fees and packing it in.
In PA for example liquor licenses are pretty tightly controlled. And they only give out so many news ones. So there is a secondary market for them where they go for hundreds of thousands of dollars. The weird thing? It doesnt really have any effect of new bars being built.
I AZ the fees to do anything in marijuana like retail license, test facility, distributor, or growers are all under $30k. Thats paltry. You are talking about a business that would require ~$250-500k of capital just to enter. Your brother that grows a couple plants in his garage was never getting into this major business. These are expected costs by any entrepreneur and are in fact not even that high considering the profit potential.
Being unhappy with the amount of licenses given out happens often with any bill dealing with licenses. You always get the bill passed and then work on amendments for the 2 year review. Thats how it works in this system. That is how you get bills passed. Its a give and take. Selling the idea of 100 weed shops per block isn't going to get a bill passed.
A 15% tax. Still not following that argument. What did you expect it to be? Colorado is 10%. The lush utopia that houses the best weed bill ever written according to you called Oregon, has a 17-20% tax. Colorado and Oregon are both waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more liberal then AZ. I assumed you understood that in different states you will structure certain bills differently in order to up the chances of it passing in the first place. Passing this bill in no way limits any future growth of the industry here. You will see increases in licenses after the initial period of review. They did that with medical here.
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How funny. Heres a link you should read. 
