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If you strangle the growth of the oak trees you will diminish the production of acorns and starve more deer than you will ever kill in a controlled burn.
I was hoping you may have some insight about smoke issues from the burning that goes on in the area. The focus of this thread had mostly been about controlled forest fires and the destruction it causes, but you also voiced a concern about the smoke. This is one of the reasons I want to leave Oregon because they have widespread grass field burning every late summer, along with heavy use of wood burning stoves and fireplaces during the winter. The air quality rating is much worse than Arkansas according to CityData, though I'm wondering how much this forest burning, agricultural burning, smoke from fireplaces and wood burning stoves is a local issue depending on where a person lives. Would you have any thoughts or concerns that you are willing to share about that? I'm hoping to buy a farm to grow some orchard crops like blueberries and veggies on the side, though I have some respiratory health issues and I'm not sure if smoke from fireplaces in the winter or forest and field burnings in the warmer months could cause me some problems particularly if can get pretty thick or concentrated at times. I'm also in sympathy with your concerns about the controlled forest burning because of the damage to the plant and animal life and I'm glad there are some groups trying to stop it. I wrote a letter to the Oregon Legislature to testify about the damaging effects of smoke from agricultural burning and though we have not been able to overturn it, many of us are working at that to do so.
Another reason I'm moving to the Fayetteville area is for the warmer climate and to try to get away from the constant wet winters in the Willamette Valley here in Oregon. I'm hoping to be a boost to the local economy when I get there by producing blueberries and really value what I've seen about the people from your State.
Thanks!
Jamsrk
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvarkansas
Hayfields are different from forests.
I don't often find myself on the side of environmentalist wackos, but I agree with them on this. California is different from Arkansas. Dry thunderstorms that do not produce rain that reaches the ground are most prevalent in the western United States....not Arkansas. Arkansas also does not have the high winds that California does. Lightning strike wildfires are just not a serious problem in the Ozarks and are not a frequent natural occurrence. This is why they say that the controlled burns are not controlling wildfires.
Add to that the fact that they burn all year long and thus kill young animals (I'm not a big animal lover, but neither do I like to be cruel to animals), and the fact that their "controlled" burns are not very controlled, and you have the reasons for my beef. I've seen some of these "controlled" burns....they are 10 feet high and burning up the sides of the trees, catching some pretty large ones on fire...they get out of "control" and burn up places they are not supposed to, such I mentioned before about Fern Gully and the OHT....these places will not be recovered for years....and not to mention the terrible smoke they produce (some from poison ivy, which can be fatal for people who allergic to breathe). Even people who live in towns are affected by the smoke...I found a page that talked about how the smoke was affecting Fayetteville, causing the streetlights to come on in the middle of the day, etc. (this was in '04) It's not just "a little wood smoke". You literally cannot go outside for days if you live near one of the burns.
Well, anyway, I've had my say and I guess I'll just go away now. At least I found out that there are groups who are trying to stop it. Big government, though....'nuff said.
Well, I just had to say something else. The national forests are not being maintained for timber production, they are there for us to be able to get out in the woods and enjoy nature and wilderness...which does just fine left to itself, thank you.
Actually, the National Forests are maintained for timber production, along with many other things. National Forests are mixed-use lands, with timber production being one of those uses, along with recreation. Lands in the National Park system and many state parks are strictly for recreation and protection, however. With the exception of designated wilderness areas, timber production can and does occur on all National Forest lands at one time or another.
I'm not familliar with the controlled burns in Arkansas but I've seen the results of many in the Missouri Ozarks on the National Forest lands there. The results are really quite nice, as after a burn or two the forest changes from a thick mess of undergrowth and trees into more of a pine-oak savanna. Much of the Ozarks actually were a pine-oak savanna to begin with before it was logged off, if you read some of the accounts of early explores and settlers (like Henry Schoolcraft). This may be in part due to the native Americans burning the land themselves, however.
I've also hiked through one of the burns that was done in the fall before spring came along and the results weren't too bad. Sure, there was a lot of ash and burnt limbs on the ground, but stuff grows back very fast in the Ozarks after a burn.
I was hoping you may have some insight about smoke issues from the burning that goes on in the area. The focus of this thread had mostly been about controlled forest fires and the destruction it causes, but you also voiced a concern about the smoke. This is one of the reasons I want to leave Oregon because they have widespread grass field burning every late summer, along with heavy use of wood burning stoves and fireplaces during the winter. The air quality rating is much worse than Arkansas according to CityData, though I'm wondering how much this forest burning, agricultural burning, smoke from fireplaces and wood burning stoves is a local issue depending on where a person lives. Would you have any thoughts or concerns that you are willing to share about that? I'm hoping to buy a farm to grow some orchard crops like blueberries and veggies on the side, though I have some respiratory health issues and I'm not sure if smoke from fireplaces in the winter or forest and field burnings in the warmer months could cause me some problems particularly if can get pretty thick or concentrated at times. I'm also in sympathy with your concerns about the controlled forest burning because of the damage to the plant and animal life and I'm glad there are some groups trying to stop it. I wrote a letter to the Oregon Legislature to testify about the damaging effects of smoke from agricultural burning and though we have not been able to overturn it, many of us are working at that to do so.
Another reason I'm moving to the Fayetteville area is for the warmer climate and to try to get away from the constant wet winters in the Willamette Valley here in Oregon. I'm hoping to be a boost to the local economy when I get there by producing blueberries and really value what I've seen about the people from your State.
Thanks!
Jamsrk
I answered you on that other thread before I saw this one.
I was hoping you may have some insight about smoke issues from the burning that goes on in the area. The focus of this thread had mostly been about controlled forest fires and the destruction it causes, but you also voiced a concern about the smoke. This is one of the reasons I want to leave Oregon because they have widespread grass field burning every late summer, along with heavy use of wood burning stoves and fireplaces during the winter. The air quality rating is much worse than Arkansas according to CityData, though I'm wondering how much this forest burning, agricultural burning, smoke from fireplaces and wood burning stoves is a local issue depending on where a person lives. Would you have any thoughts or concerns that you are willing to share about that? I'm hoping to buy a farm to grow some orchard crops like blueberries and veggies on the side, though I have some respiratory health issues and I'm not sure if smoke from fireplaces in the winter or forest and field burnings in the warmer months could cause me some problems particularly if can get pretty thick or concentrated at times. I'm also in sympathy with your concerns about the controlled forest burning because of the damage to the plant and animal life and I'm glad there are some groups trying to stop it. I wrote a letter to the Oregon Legislature to testify about the damaging effects of smoke from agricultural burning and though we have not been able to overturn it, many of us are working at that to do so.
Another reason I'm moving to the Fayetteville area is for the warmer climate and to try to get away from the constant wet winters in the Willamette Valley here in Oregon. I'm hoping to be a boost to the local economy when I get there by producing blueberries and really value what I've seen about the people from your State.
Thanks!
Jamsrk
I'll jump in this for a minute, from a different prospective.
I'm a timber producer, my neighbors are hay producers.
I sympathize entirely with the folks that are sensitive to the smoke, but I'll give you some insight as to why it is done, and what happens if it is not done.
Timber.......
Invasive species of plants grow quickly over time, and these are not edible to the critters. When this is burnt off, the edible plants resume growth....quickly. The trees are not competeing as heavily with the brushy undergrowth, which means they are not stressed as much, which means they resist infestation and mold better.
Wildlife *must* have those edible plants, or they starve quickly. As it is, a number of deer will starve every winter, we just try to minimize those numbers.
Tick control. Small areas (yards) can be easily managed with organic control, but large areas cannot. Ticks breed quickly, and can rest on a leaf, in suspended animation, for 7 years, waiting to drop on a food source. To keep that population down some, the fire is beneficial.
Hay fields...
The burn creates ash, which is beneficial to the soil. Fertilizer came close to $1.00 a pound a while back, it takes ~250 lbs an acres or so depending on analysis, so if your doing 500 acres....every little bit helps.
Tick control (again). You can't put a flea collar on them cows and deer, and with growing concern over insecticides, *nobody* wants to use them. We gotta drink this water, and we all (almost) have to eat that beef.
Elimination of thatch for better production, big difference.
I have seen fields and timber that has not been burnt, and it looks like one of those "miracle gro" commercials where they show you the puny plant next to the big strapping dude.
As far as an effect on air quality, I've not heard detrimental long term effects versus auto exhaust.
Our "local" TV station, KAIT in Jonesboro, has a sky cam, and sometimes they will show it and comment on the haze from "field burns".
With the hundreds of thousands of acres of trees in Arkansas, the regeneration of clean air is quick, but burns need to be done in order to maintatin those trees.
I look at this like, "Why do we torture children by shoving a needle in them to make sure they don't polio or whatever when it might not happen anyway?", or, "Why submit to a colonoscopy after 50?".
There's folks on both sides of this here...............
LOL! Glad to see conflicting opinions packaged so well.
I just wanted to say that if it means killing ticks I'm all fer it!
But seriously, a lot has been learned in the past 50 years about forestry management. The most important thing, I guess, is that Smoky The Bear was wrong. Forests have to have small fires periodically to manage undergrowth.
It's true that Arkansas is not the same as the desert southwest, but every forest has its need for small fires, and Arkansas' forests are no exception. RogMar explained it quite well. Put simply, the health of the forest is at stake. For all of the years of the Smoky The Bear campaign we mismanaged our forests all over the country. We are not completely recovered from that yet. Some of the controlled burns are made more difficult by that fact. I dare say that eventually, when the controlled burns are caught up with Nature's excesses of the past, they wont be that much of a problem.
It's true that Nature, absent man's interference, doesn't always burn the Ozarks' forests as often as man does, or often enough, depending on your point of view. But, that doesn't mean that man should shun his duty to do what is best for the forest and the critters that depend on it for their habitat. To not do so would be a tragic failure of unconscionable magnitude. You need look no further than the story of The Great Peshtigo Fire to see what happens when raw Nature is left to extremes of happenstance.
While no one knows the actual cause of the fire, one prevailing theory is that the usually moist peat bogs and dry weather conditions combined to create a tender box of dried leaves and dead wood that self ignited within the deeply layered decaying peat beds. For weeks before the fire broke out in east Wisconsin on October 8, 1871, the smoldering undergrowth filled the air over Lake Michigan with such thick smoke that ship captains refused to navigate the waters. Then by October 8, a weather front from the west brought high winds to fan the smoldering bogs into spontaneous combustion. It was the worst fire in US History in terms of lives lost alone. Twelve whole communities were wiped out as one and a half million acres burned. Because community records were lost as well, the actual number of lives lost will never be known, but was estimated to be between 1,200 and 2,500 people.
And this was in a time when the population density was much less than we experience today.
Yes, Arkansas is not Wisconsin, but we still must be vigilant to all potential outcomes when there is so much fuel involved, as the stakes are so high. The first three letters in management is MAN. If we don't do it (manage), who will?
Hay smoke, biodiversity, soil fertility, and wood boilers
RogMar, I can appreciate where your coming from too and thank you for sharing your knowledge. Since I'm not an expert at any of this I'm learning trying to learn everything I can. Do you have any thoughts on why the nutrients in the hay stubble or underbrush doesn't recycle back into the soil over time since I thought that the nutrients in decaying organic matter where more bio-available to plants than chemical fertilizers or the nutrients from ash after a burn? And don't the water soluble salts from ash have more of a tendency to wash away when it rains, whereas decaying organic matter, ie, compost is more likely to hold onto nutrients and gradually release them while improving the overall fertility of the soil? I think one of the main reasons for burning underbrush and hay stubble is to get rid of insects and diseases that would threaten timber or various crops. It might be nice if there were other methods to control the insects or disease, like crop rotation, intercrop variety, and a diverse ecosystem of native plants that help keep some of the insects in balance. There are certain plants that help keep things in balance. Black walnut contains a natural herbicide call juglone that does not allow any other plants or trees to grow within its perimter. If it were interspersed with hemlock, pine, and hardwoods it might lead to less brush accumulation. For fungus diseases some plants are naturally anti-fungal like the Phellodedron tree, though in some settings it might be invasive so that needs to be checked out. Not too sure what are all the good suggestions for natural insect control or repelling, except that lady bugs, ground beetles, and praying mantis, all thrive in bio-diverse environments and are natural predators of insects like the white pine beetle that kill trees. The native short leave pine is less sussceptible to predation, but overall biodiversity should be strived for so no one species isn't a sitting duck.
I thought that link about the Great Peshtigo fire of 1871 in Wisconsin that fed on much organic matter from peat bogs makes it logical that fires should happen every so often so that excess amounts of potential deadly fire fuel dont build up too much, so we probably need this if it has been over-restricted. that was one terrible catostrophe!
Can you tell me since you are living amongst and adjacent to hay producers, how you handle the times when they burn the stubble? Is this later in the year when it cools off and you keep windows closed? How many days does the burning take place? Do you have to stay inside and wait it out before you can go out and do things on your own property? Do the neighbors tell you when a burn will take place? Does it happen randomly with who does it or is it coordinated with each other so they aren't all burning at the same time? Have any of the valleys or low lying areas seen any inversions or accumulations of smoke that caused health problems or sickness? This would help me to know how well i could do in a setting with neigbors who have to do a burn every so often, if it is managed properly.
I also wonder about these wood boilers that are supposed to emit 50 times more smoke and particulates than one single regular high efficiency fireplace. Have you seen any of them in the area. Here in Eugene we have some these hippies trying to save money and use biofules, but they are billowing large amounts of smoke all of over their neighboring area even during the summer when people like to keep the windows open for fresh air, or walk or bike ride through the area. These are also becoming a real problem in New England where neighbors are being smoked out and can't open their windows. With the lack of laws and regulations in the free for all market people have done whatever they wanted to without regard to their neighbors and only now are some of those states putting restrictions on wood fuel boilers. I would anticipate with the concern about climate change that even less burning will be allowed of those that are heavy polluters especially if there are alternative methods available, some of which have catalysts to remove remaining particulates by an additional 90%, and they claim to give off 30% more heat. I know i've covered a lot of different topics, but I just wanted to share some of the good and the bad about the wood burning stove topic for those thinking about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogMar
I'll jump in this for a minute, from a different prospective.
I'm a timber producer, my neighbors are hay producers.
I sympathize entirely with the folks that are sensitive to the smoke, but I'll give you some insight as to why it is done, and what happens if it is not done.
Timber.......
Invasive species of plants grow quickly over time, and these are not edible to the critters. When this is burnt off, the edible plants resume growth....quickly. The trees are not competeing as heavily with the brushy undergrowth, which means they are not stressed as much, which means they resist infestation and mold better.
Wildlife *must* have those edible plants, or they starve quickly. As it is, a number of deer will starve every winter, we just try to minimize those numbers.
Tick control. Small areas (yards) can be easily managed with organic control, but large areas cannot. Ticks breed quickly, and can rest on a leaf, in suspended animation, for 7 years, waiting to drop on a food source. To keep that population down some, the fire is beneficial.
Hay fields...
The burn creates ash, which is beneficial to the soil. Fertilizer came close to $1.00 a pound a while back, it takes ~250 lbs an acres or so depending on analysis, so if your doing 500 acres....every little bit helps.
Tick control (again). You can't put a flea collar on them cows and deer, and with growing concern over insecticides, *nobody* wants to use them. We gotta drink this water, and we all (almost) have to eat that beef.
Elimination of thatch for better production, big difference.
I have seen fields and timber that has not been burnt, and it looks like one of those "miracle gro" commercials where they show you the puny plant next to the big strapping dude.
As far as an effect on air quality, I've not heard detrimental long term effects versus auto exhaust.
Our "local" TV station, KAIT in Jonesboro, has a sky cam, and sometimes they will show it and comment on the haze from "field burns".
With the hundreds of thousands of acres of trees in Arkansas, the regeneration of clean air is quick, but burns need to be done in order to maintatin those trees.
I look at this like, "Why do we torture children by shoving a needle in them to make sure they don't polio or whatever when it might not happen anyway?", or, "Why submit to a colonoscopy after 50?".
There's folks on both sides of this here...............
RogMar, I can appreciate where your coming from too and thank you for sharing your knowledge. Since I'm not an expert at any of this I'm learning trying to learn everything I can.
Wow........
A lot of points/questions, but I'll take a lick at this.....
Biodiversity & crop rotation.....
A *very* good point.
When I was young(er), before I had my drivin' license and could operate a mobile party platform, I had to work summers at my brother's farm.
Nothing but farms as far as you could see.
Folks rotated crops. Every year different sections were up in wheat, soybeans, corn, or........clover. Sooner or later every section was put up in clover for nitrogen regeneration.
We also had black & white TV's, if we had one at all.
That was before the population boomed like it has, other countries entered the markets, the international import/export market became king, and demand skyrocketed.
Now, the kind of farming you are talking about works only for those the IRS classifies as "hobby farms", which are generally in the production of crops for local specialty markets.
Nobody can afford to let a field sit for a season, nor put out 20 bushels an acre when everybody else is putting out 40 bushels an acre, thereby setting market prices which are *much* lower in today's dollars compared to 40 years ago.
Now in the case of hay/bushes/natural decay, yes, things will decay and return to the soil *someday*. You could have a child and raise it before those oak leaves on the ground decay. Unfortunately, the *good* plants don't like those conditions, therefore the *bad* plants take over.
In a hay field, that stubble ain't going nowhere for a long time, it takes up growing room, and no way can a hay field sit dormant for a season.
You are right on the money as far as the beneficial plants you list, and if someone had planted those 60-80 years ago, they'd be beneficial now, however....
We're talking making money here. I planted improved loblolly pine in '06. In 2016, I have to thin that, and every other tree will be taken out for fence posts, or the larger poles, depending on growth.
I won't make much off that.
Then, in 2026, I can begin logging it, if I want bottom dollar. They will be prime about 2036, and whoever has this place then, will sell the timber.
The hickory and oak that I had planted in '06 won't be ready for anything for at least 50 years.
If I were not concerned about selling timber, I would plant exactly like you described, put a wreath of flowers on my head, and spend the rest of my days wandering through it calling to the critters.
I'm just joshin' ya'.
Outside wood stoves......oh yeah. They produce smoke, bud. Got neighbors that have them, but we all live far enough apart that you wouldn't know it. They have to go 24/7 365, or you have no hot water.
Years ago, they were affordable. Now, the "renewable energy" folks have driven the cost way up. A neighbor put one in last sumer, and the end cost was about $14,000. When you have a virtually unlimted fuel supply, though......I dunno.
Different folks burn at different times, and yes, they notify neighbors. My front "yard" is right against my neighbor's 80 acre feed field, and when he burns that, we help and we burn my yard at the same time.
I've never known the smoke from these burns to be an issue, it's never been mentioned in the news or papers, it's been done forever, and it will go on forever.
I guess that my view is that if someone did suffer from smoke, I'd advise them not to move into farm country.
Every once in a while, also, the wind might catch the aroma of cattle droppings in that field next to ya, also. Goes with the real estate.
Folks drop in here every now and then, and they want to live in the country in the south, but the don't want to deal with spiders, snakes, skeeters, ticks, bears, bobcats, mountain lions, folks that "dip', cammo pickup trucks, or that stupid southern drawl...........
There ain't no perfect place, and if one is unwilling to make concessions and accept their environ and neighbors pretty much as they are, ya might as well be in Cleveland, cause everyplace is going to be the same.
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questions on an older post
