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Old 11-17-2008, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
148 posts, read 349,503 times
Reputation: 56

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My comments about my own experiences with Arkansas were challenged on the grounds that I did no research. So, I posted stats. My information about New Mexico (BTW, young voters vote in low numbers EVERYWHERE but represent a disproportionate share of the electorate in NM) comes, again, directly from the census bureau and other reliable sources, not anectdotes. The only part of Arkansas that's not losing population is NWA (shall I link to that info as well?). I never said some people don't stick around (although folks are sure willing to put words in my mouth). This thread was about BLACK PEOPLE, what part of that don't you get?

I'm not sure why you think I'm equating progress with development and urban sprawl either. I find neither particularly appealing. My brother graduated from college in Montana and doesn't have the feelings about that state that DH and I do about Arkansas; Montana is hardly a haven for the urbane. The two are not related. And if you'll read my posts you'll see I pointed to states that lean dem and lean republican as illustrations of what happens when young people leave the state in droves.

I'm not sure how I'm disparaging others either, except for those who specifically stated that they were pleased 'people like me' (whatever that means) were leaving the state and/or resided elsewhere. Yep, real nice,and guaranteed to lead to civil discourse.

I just find it funny to see so many non-black retirees going on and on about how wonderful the place is for young black families and professionals.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:58 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,728,918 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneezyone View Post
My comments about my own experiences with Arkansas were challenged on the grounds that I did no research. So, I posted stats. My information about New Mexico (BTW, young voters vote in low numbers EVERYWHERE but represent a disproportionate share of the electorate in NM) comes, again, directly from the census bureau and other reliable sources, not anectdotes. The only part of Arkansas that's not losing population is NWA (shall I link to that info as well?). I never said some people don't stick around (although folks are sure willing to put words in my mouth). This thread was about BLACK PEOPLE, what part of that don't you get?

I'm not sure why you think I'm equating progress with development and urban sprawl either. I find neither particularly appealing. My brother graduated from college in Montana and doesn't have the feelings about that state that DH and I do about Arkansas; Montana is hardly a haven for the urbane. The two are not related. And if you'll read my posts you'll see I pointed to states that lean dem and lean republican as illustrations of what happens when young people leave the state in droves.

I'm not sure how I'm disparaging others either, except for those who specifically stated that they were pleased 'people like me' (whatever that means) were leaving the state and/or resided elsewhere. Yep, real nice,and guaranteed to lead to civil discourse.

I just find it funny to see so many non-black retirees going on and on about how wonderful the place is for young black families and professionals.
Which of us are supposedly non-black retirees?

Re-read the last sentence of your post. It disparages a whole group of people. I understand that it's a stretch for non-black retirees to fully empathize with young black families and professionals, but empathy goes two ways. Some retirees may have very relevant experiences that gives them insight into what life could be like for young black people in Arkansas.

I've lived elsewhere, in very urban areas, and now live in rural Arkansas. I'm not extolling Arkansas at the expense of those urban areas, I'm pointing out that every area where people live has something unique and special about it. Positive living experiences don't just happen when you live surrounded by people who look like you or think like you or vote like you.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:02 PM
 
1,661 posts, read 5,183,825 times
Reputation: 1349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
DC, your last paragraph is positively poetic. Thank you. Being a voice...that's the ticket.
<RogMar in white robe...hand in the air......"

Kin I get an AMEN?????

I tried to click ya, DC, but teh Wizard says I gotta "spread it around".
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,772 posts, read 104,160,112 times
Reputation: 49244
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogMar View Post
<RogMar in white robe...hand in the air......"

Kin I get an AMEN?????

I tried to click ya, DC, but teh Wizard says I gotta "spread it around".
they always make us spread it around....

Nita
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
148 posts, read 349,503 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Which of us are supposedly non-black retirees?

Re-read the last sentence of your post. It disparages a whole group of people. I understand that it's a stretch for non-black retirees to fully empathize with young black families and professionals, but empathy goes two ways. Some retirees may have very relevant experiences that gives them insight into what life could be like for young black people in Arkansas.

I've lived elsewhere, in very urban areas, and now live in rural Arkansas. I'm not extolling Arkansas at the expense of those urban areas, I'm pointing out that every area where people live has something unique and special about it. Positive living experiences don't just happen when you live surrounded by people who look like you or think like you or vote like you.
If by disparage you mean pointing up the insanity of white grandparent-aged folks speaking with authority about what goes into the decision-making processes of Gen X/Y black people, then yes. Again, I never said there weren't positive things about Arkansas. I've said, and I'll repeat, that there are not enough positives to discourage the outmigration of the state's young minority professionals.

ETA: I agree completely with your last sentence which is why it's so dispiriting to see so many adopt the attitude that there's nothing wrong with Arkansas that the expulsion of progressives wont fix. I don't know if you've noticed but black people are minorities pretty much everywhere we go. It's not about being surounded by people who look like us, there's no such place in America. We are constantly living among and learning from people who do not look like us, think like us or vote like us. That's a given. No, what I'm looking for is a critical mass of minorities such that people won't immediately look to me or my children for the token minority viewpoint. Such that we can be free to be ourselves, whoever and whatever that is, rather than conforming to one dominant idea of how people should live and what they should believe. Such that we can feel less like little islands and more like a community.

Last edited by Sneezyone; 11-17-2008 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:54 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,728,918 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneezyone View Post
If by disparage you mean pointing up the insanity of white grandparent-aged folks speaking with authority about what goes into the decision-making processes of Gen X/Y black people, then yes. Again, I never said there weren't positive things about Arkansas. I've said, and I'll repeat, that there are not enough positives to discourage the outmigration ofthe state's young minority professionals.
I think we're just seeing this from two very different viewpoints. Not all of us bright young things went off to college and didn't come back. For me, there were enough positives to keep me home. The positives were enduring, the negatives could be changed. I might not make the progress I would like, but I know I make a difference. And that's a fantastic positive.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
148 posts, read 349,503 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I think we're just seeing this from two very different viewpoints. Not all of us bright young things went off to college and didn't come back. For me, there were enough positives to keep me home. The positives were enduring, the negatives could be changed. I might not make the progress I would like, but I know I make a difference. And that's a fantastic positive.
Perfectly valid. I can respect that. I just think more needs to be done to actively encourage more people to stay and that requires introspection.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,633,667 times
Reputation: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I really don't think that there is an attitude that tolerance is a vice. There is a conservatism that runs through the state, an attitude toward change that is cautious and even suspicious at times. But condemning that conservatism outright is an example of intolerance as well.

Some of us do stick around post graduation, some of us find it more rewarding to live in the less "receptive" culture where we are challenged each day rather than live in a like-minded world that in the end encourages disparagement rather than tolerance to people who think differently.

There may be a brain-drain in parts of Arkansas. It's a rural state with limited opportunities. Even as NWA and Little Rock thrive, other parts of the state have not grown as much and lag on all sorts of fronts. But there is always a trade-off. Progress has costs as well as benefits. Leaping on the opportunities for progress may make sense, but cautiously weighing the costs against the benefits makes sense, too. I appreciate that many of the people who live here in Arkansas actually feel enriched by that "backward" way of life, they see the value of having roots in the land, not only in selling it to the top bidder, they see the value of learning from the past, not just in discarding it as distasteful and "backward". They may "settle" for what they have rather than mortgaging their futures to enjoy what the rest of the country has, because what they have is something valuable, something to aspire to.

There is racism everywhere. The coasts aren't immune, and neither is Europe. There might have been flyers from churches maligning Obama, and people point that out as proof that people of Arkansas are more racist. They aren't. Some people are more in your face about it. But in a political contest, it was up to Obama and the Democratic party to refute those rumors, those slanders, and that didn't happen. Obama never stopped in Arkansas. His 50-state campaign didn't make it to all the states, he didn't place ads in the media, he didn't send out flyers, no phone calls. Do you blame the citizens of Arkansas for hearing only the Republican claims, when the Democratic voice was silent? They can't hear what's not being spoken.

Arkansas isn't Eden. It's not a Paradise. It has plenty of problems. But I don't think that one of those problems is the outspokenness of the conservative voices in Arkansas. It's that the liberal voices are so subdued. Liberals do exist here. Act 1 didn't win by a landslide, and Obama had a strong showing if you consider he didn't campaign here at all. But if you are a liberal and all you care about is leaving the state, the fact is it's not politics that are motivating you. If you truly cared about politics, about equality for people without reference to their race or sexual persuasion, you'd stay and be a voice for those people. There's nothing wrong with wanting different things from life than Arkansas offers. Just like there's nothing wrong with wanting different things from life than California offers. But tolerance isn't about bashing the people who stay because they do enjoy what their home states offer. Tolerance is about understanding why people choose to stay, it's about crediting them not as stupid or "backward" but as people who place more value than you in certain things, and less value in others, but who contribute to the wholeness of our society because we aren't all politically correct, we aren't all the same, we are individuals who need to find ways to connect and work together. Disparaging people who don't agree with you politically says so much more about you and your attitudes toward dissidence than it does about the dissidents.


You said Obama had a strong showing in AR? I'm scratching my head. are you kidding? lol
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,998 posts, read 14,739,674 times
Reputation: 3545
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I really don't think that there is an attitude that tolerance is a vice. There is a conservatism that runs through the state, an attitude toward change that is cautious and even suspicious at times. But condemning that conservatism outright is an example of intolerance as well.

Some of us do stick around post graduation, some of us find it more rewarding to live in the less "receptive" culture where we are challenged each day rather than live in a like-minded world that in the end encourages disparagement rather than tolerance to people who think differently.

There may be a brain-drain in parts of Arkansas. It's a rural state with limited opportunities. Even as NWA and Little Rock thrive, other parts of the state have not grown as much and lag on all sorts of fronts. But there is always a trade-off. Progress has costs as well as benefits. Leaping on the opportunities for progress may make sense, but cautiously weighing the costs against the benefits makes sense, too. I appreciate that many of the people who live here in Arkansas actually feel enriched by that "backward" way of life, they see the value of having roots in the land, not only in selling it to the top bidder, they see the value of learning from the past, not just in discarding it as distasteful and "backward". They may "settle" for what they have rather than mortgaging their futures to enjoy what the rest of the country has, because what they have is something valuable, something to aspire to.

There is racism everywhere. The coasts aren't immune, and neither is Europe. There might have been flyers from churches maligning Obama, and people point that out as proof that people of Arkansas are more racist. They aren't. Some people are more in your face about it. But in a political contest, it was up to Obama and the Democratic party to refute those rumors, those slanders, and that didn't happen. Obama never stopped in Arkansas. His 50-state campaign didn't make it to all the states, he didn't place ads in the media, he didn't send out flyers, no phone calls. Do you blame the citizens of Arkansas for hearing only the Republican claims, when the Democratic voice was silent? They can't hear what's not being spoken.

Arkansas isn't Eden. It's not a Paradise. It has plenty of problems. But I don't think that one of those problems is the outspokenness of the conservative voices in Arkansas. It's that the liberal voices are so subdued. Liberals do exist here. Act 1 didn't win by a landslide, and Obama had a strong showing if you consider he didn't campaign here at all. But if you are a liberal and all you care about is leaving the state, the fact is it's not politics that are motivating you. If you truly cared about politics, about equality for people without reference to their race or sexual persuasion, you'd stay and be a voice for those people. There's nothing wrong with wanting different things from life than Arkansas offers. Just like there's nothing wrong with wanting different things from life than California offers. But tolerance isn't about bashing the people who stay because they do enjoy what their home states offer. Tolerance is about understanding why people choose to stay, it's about crediting them not as stupid or "backward" but as people who place more value than you in certain things, and less value in others, but who contribute to the wholeness of our society because we aren't all politically correct, we aren't all the same, we are individuals who need to find ways to connect and work together. Disparaging people who don't agree with you politically says so much more about you and your attitudes toward dissidence than it does about the dissidents.
I've done a lot of thinking about the positive and negatives about leaving and I think I'm going to stay.
In any case, I love this post.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:47 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,728,918 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetmeoutofAR View Post
You said Obama had a strong showing in AR? I'm scratching my head. are you kidding? lol

No, I'm not kidding. He didn't campaign AT ALL in Arkansas. When's the last time a candidate who didn't campaign won almost 40% of the vote in any election? That's a STRONG showing considering how much energy and money he expended for those votes.
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