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Old 03-05-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
You would defend the practice of three generation imprisonment? You would defend the practice of starving your people, kidnapping citizens of other countries? Kim Jong Ils North Korea is so repressive that its people find life as illegal immigrants in China preferable then living under Kim.
I know quite a bit about North Korea and the regime of Dear Leader. My information comes from varied sources including but not limited to Amnesty International, ABC, CBS, NBC, BBC, Newsweek, internet articles and yes -- even documentaries and books written by people who managed to escape North Korea. What are your sources? 'I Hate USA Weekly'? 'Self Loathing Gazette'? Your ignorance and naivity is astounding. Your post reminds me of Holocaust Deniers, and I find that very troubling.
Education is a wondrous thing, avail yourself of it.
I haven't defended anybody.

There are plenty of readily available sources that show conclusively that
A) American activities have killed more civilians in Iraq than the number of deaths in NK that can be attributable to Kim, and
B) Per capita, the USA has twice as many people incarcerated in prisons than the number in NK, and
C) North Korea has not attacked a single country, during a space of time in which the USA has carried out warfare in more than a dozen countries, killing millions, and
D) The USA has the capability of delivering nuclear weapons and a history of doing so, and made credible threats, and North Korea does not.

My sources of information about NK are the same as yours (except Glenn Beck and Fox News), but I know unfounded BS and self-serving propaganda when I see it. Sources who "managed to escape" sure don't sound like they'd be objective. What do you think Mumia Abu Jamal and Leonard Pelletier and Bradley Manning and the prisoners at Gitmo would say about the USA if they "managed to escape", and how objective would you regard that?

Your post reminds me of the FW E-Mails sent me by my naive friends, that are constantly bashing Obama, Liberals, Mexicans, etc., which are based on nothing but blind hatred and childish personal prejudice and a penchant for clever-sounding quips.

Last edited by jtur88; 03-05-2011 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:25 PM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,619,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I haven't defended anybody.

There are plenty of readily available sources that show conclusively that
A) American activities have killed more civilians in Iraq than the number of deaths in NK that can be attributable to Kim, and
B) Per capita, the USA has twice as many people incarcerated in prisons than the number in NK, and
C) North Korea has not attacked a single country, during a space of time in which the USA has carried out warfare in more than a dozen countries, killing millions, and
D) The USA has the capability of delivering nuclear weapons and a history of doing so, and made credible threats, and North Korea does not.

My sources of information about NK are the same as yours (except Glenn Beck and Fox News), but I know unfounded BS and self-serving propaganda when I see it. Sources who "managed to escape" sure don't sound like they'd be objective. What do you think Mumia Abu Jamal and Leonard Pelletier and Bradley Manning and the prisoners at Gitmo would say about the USA if they "managed to escape", and how objective would you regard that?

Your post reminds me of the FW E-Mails sent me by my naive friends, that are constantly bashing Obama, Liberals, Mexicans, etc., which are based on nothing but blind hatred and childish personal prejudice and a penchant for clever-sounding quips.
Mexicans, Glen Beck, Liberals and Foxnews? Wtf are you talking about? I was under the impression that we were talking about your denial of the human rights violations on a truly spectacular level going on in North Korea. I never mentioned any of the other ancillary bs that you loaded your response with.

According to this website, approximately 99,000-110,000 civilians have been killed since the beginning of the Iraq war
Iraq Body Count. A truly horrifying number. Nonetheless, contrast that to millions that have starved to death in North Korea and have simply disapeared with three generations of their families because of ....who knows why, really?

This report finds that massive and varied crimes against humanity were taking place in North Korea’s political labour camps. The report distinguishes between commonplace human rights violations such as miscarriages of justice, much more serious “consistent patterns of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights,” and severe human violations that are so egregious that they rise to the level of “crimes against humanity,” “war crimes” or “genocide"

http://www.universaljurisdiction.org/world/north-korea/1089-reports-repression-the-death-penalty-political-prisoners-a-torture
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:42 PM
 
545 posts, read 1,554,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonUSA View Post
Are worried about them having nuclear weapons, starting a war etc..

This is mainly going out to the South Koreans, Japanese and other Asian countries. Others feel free to join in.
NK is a big threat to China. That's why China's been bribing NK to be less reckless. China's Northeast will become a wasteland if war breaks out.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post

[b][i]This report finds that massive and varied crimes against humanity were taking place in North Korea’s political labour camps.
Your report is based on the statements of one dissident who has an axe to grind against NK. There is absolutely no independently or objectively verifiable information whatsoever in the sites you referenced. Just because one person says something that you want to believe, doesn't make it true.

Human rights are not taken as a given in very many countries in the world. You get involved in revolutionary activity against the government in place, you know exactly what the consequences are.

Back to the original thread, the fact that NK has revolutionary agitators in prison does not present a single shred of argument to lead one to believe that anybody outside NK needs to be afraid of them. If you and the radical self-serving for-profit corporate media in your country and your own cartoon nincompoop president would stop threatening them and calling them the axis of evil, and get 25,000 of your own armed troops out of a stone's throw of their border, they wouldn't even have any need to arm themselves at all.

If you're so interested in human rights, start working to get a million non-violent Americans, most of them fathers and husbands, out of the gulags in your own country, down the street from your house.

Last edited by jtur88; 03-05-2011 at 08:10 PM..
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:56 PM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,619,881 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Your report is based on the statements of one dissident who has an axe to grind against NK. There is absolutely no independently or objectively verifiable information whatsoever in the sites you referenced. Just because one person says something that you want to believe, doesn't make it true.

Human rights are not taken as a given in very many countries in the world. You get involved in revolutionary activity against the government in place, you know exactly what the consequences are.

Back to the original thread, the fact that NK has revolutionary agitators in prison does not present a single shred of argument to lead one to believe that anybody outside NK needs to be afraid of them. If you and the radical self-serving for-profit corporate media in your country and your own cartoon nincompoop president would stop threatening them and calling them the axis of evil, and get 25,000 of your own armed troops out of a stone's throw of their border, they wouldn't even have any need to arm themselves at all.

If you're so interested in human rights, start working to get a million non-violent Americans, most of them fathers and husbands, out of the gulags in your own country, down the street from your house.

As it happens one of my own brothers is in a federal prison one state away. He and his fellow inmates are not political prisoners, unless you view drug dealing (the most common crime) as a political statement and less a way to get high. It should also be noted that my brother is serving his time alone and his children and our parents have not been imprisoned alongside of him. Quite unlike North Korea.

And really, it is not one guy making these claims. These crimes have been reported and documented by many human rights agencies including Amnesty International which I can assure you is not considered the lapdog of Conservative Republicans. '
For your reading pleasure:
Life Funds for North Korean Refugees, an NGO
N K n e t
LiNK - The North Korea Human Rights Crisis
Welcome to North Korea Freedom Coalition
Helping Hands Korea
North Korea | Amnesty International


You have yet to show me a single article that disproves any of the widely reported and documented human rights violations of North Korea.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Fairfax
2,904 posts, read 6,905,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Your report is based on the statements of one dissident who has an axe to grind against NK. There is absolutely no independently or objectively verifiable information whatsoever in the sites you referenced. Just because one person says something that you want to believe, doesn't make it true.

Human rights are not taken as a given in very many countries in the world. You get involved in revolutionary activity against the government in place, you know exactly what the consequences are.

Back to the original thread, the fact that NK has revolutionary agitators in prison does not present a single shred of argument to lead one to believe that anybody outside NK needs to be afraid of them. If you and the radical self-serving for-profit corporate media in your country and your own cartoon nincompoop president would stop threatening them and calling them the axis of evil, and get 25,000 of your own armed troops out of a stone's throw of their border, they wouldn't even have any need to arm themselves at all.

If you're so interested in human rights, start working to get a million non-violent Americans, most of them fathers and husbands, out of the gulags in your own country, down the street from your house.
So the thousands of North Korean defectors to the South are liars? You are so naive to support that regime. I know people who volunteer with these refugees (I hope to get into this). But, I guess you just have more information than the rest of us because of the leftist blogs you probably frequent eh? Have you ever even been outside the United States?

While there is injustice in the US, it is orders of magnitude greater in North Korea. If you do something to **** off the regime in the North (many times just being reluctant to hand over your nicer belongings) then not only yourself is sent to the concentration camp but your wife, your children, and even your grandchildren if you have any.

You are defending one of the worst regimes on the planet. Tell me, where are the concentration camps in the US? Also, if you say the refugees accounts are not credible, why do you believe every word from Kim Jong Il? Are central governments more trustworthy when they are not American?

Oh, and we're not discussing the US so perhaps you should start your own thread about human rights abuses there.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:25 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,506,516 times
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I think discussing it with this person further might be a waste of time. They have made up their mind the US is evil and so dissidents or critics of anti-US regimes can't be trusted. (Although the sources I used weren't really from NK dissidents) It's likely not even about North Korea except that NK is not the US and is hostile to the US.

To test that it might be interesting to see how jtur88 would react to a pro-US dictatorship. For example how about Uzbekistan? Although they've been listed as a "Country of Particular Concern" they've been fairly supportive of the US "war on terror." Or the pro-US military juntas of Central America. Was the stuff about them unreliable?
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
Reputation: 36643
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
It should also be noted that my brother is serving his time alone and his children and our parents have not been imprisoned alongside of him. Quite unlike North Korea.
.
Oh, this is even more interesting. So that number in NK that "could be as high as 200,000" includes all the family members, too, so is probably really only 20-30,000 actual dangerous radical dissident enemies of the state actively plotting to overthrow the government, out of a population of 20 million. One out of a thousand? And you call that a blatant abuse of human rights?

Texas has close to the population of NK. How many people in Texas are behind bars, serving time, for things like being late on child support payments, or driving with expired license, or hunting on private property, or having an open beer can in the car, or selling food stamps? I personally know several people who have been sentenced to jail terms for exactly those kinds of crimes in the land of the free.

Have you ever been in an American jail? Do you know what it's like? Just ask my friend, who was estranged from her husband who stopped making payments on her car, so it was reported as stolen, and she was picked up and spent 9 days in jail, and didn't know where her 6 year old daughter was. She plea-bargained to get out of jail, and her fine was reduced $5 for each day in jail, $5 is how much the justice system thinks a day of your life is worth. Yes, plea-bargained, nobody, absolutely nobody ever gets off. Human rights abuses? You're worried about North Korea, you had better be looking over your own shoulder.

Families? Assuming one child per inmate, there are a million school children in the USA right now, whose dads (or moms!) are in jail for nonviolent crimes (plus another million for violent crimes). Do you know what it's like to have your dad arrested?

Again, this is not to defend North Korea. But if you want to rant and rave over human rights abuses, start out in your own country, which has the highest rate in the world of citizens in prison. Where many prisons are owned and run by private corporations, who have a powerful profit incentive to not let anyone get time off for good behavior, and have found very effective ways to discourage good behavior.

Last edited by jtur88; 03-06-2011 at 06:54 AM..
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:27 AM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,619,881 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Oh, this is even more interesting. So that number in NK that "could be as high as 200,000" includes all the family members, too, so is probably really only 20-30,000 actual dangerous radical dissident enemies of the state actively plotting to overthrow the government, out of a population of 20 million. One out of a thousand? And you call that a blatant abuse of human rights?

Texas has close to the population of NK. How many people in Texas are behind bars, serving time, for things like being late on child support payments, or driving with expired license, or hunting on private property, or having an open beer can in the car, or selling food stamps? I personally know several people who have been sentenced to jail terms for exactly those kinds of crimes in the land of the free.

Have you ever been in an American jail? Do you know what it's like? Just ask my friend, who was estranged from her husband who stopped making payments on her car, so it was reported as stolen, and she was picked up and spent 9 days in jail, and didn't know where her 6 year old daughter was. She plea-bargained to get out of jail, and her fine was reduced $5 for each day in jail, $5 is how much the justice system thinks a day of your life is worth. Yes, plea-bargained, nobody, absolutely nobody ever gets off. Human rights abuses? You're worried about North Korea, you had better be looking over your own shoulder.

Families? Assuming one child per inmate, there are a million school children in the USA right now, whose dads (or moms!) are in jail for nonviolent crimes (plus another million for violent crimes). Do you know what it's like to have your dad arrested?

Again, this is not to defend North Korea. But if you want to rant and rave over human rights abuses, start out in your own country, which has the highest rate in the world of citizens in prison. Where many prisons are owned and run by private corporations, who have a powerful profit incentive to not let anyone get time off for good behavior, and have found very effective ways to discourage good behavior.
Thanks for your links supporting your baseless views on the human rights abuses of North Korea. They were quite enlightening to read - lol
Change the subject all you would like, the fact remains your argument was based soley on personal (ill)formed opinions and not facts.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
Reputation: 36643
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Thanks for your links supporting your baseless views on the human rights abuses of North Korea. They were quite enlightening to read - lol
Change the subject all you would like, the fact remains your argument was based soley on personal (ill)formed opinions and not facts.
What are you talking about? I agreed that NK has prisons where they incarcerate people convicted of being enemies of the state. Every country does. And that they do not coddle prisoners, which places them squarely in the camp of the American law and order fanatics, who may actually be in the majority in the USA. It is the US government's policy, through at least two presidents, to maintain Guantanamo to incarcerate people who remain imprisoned for many years without being accused of any crime, and to render suspects to countries very similar to NK, where they are routinely tortured. And NK probably even executes criminals, as does the USA and a few other countries.

As for changing the subject, what have you presented that supports the argument that NK constitutes any kind of a threat to people outside NK with all of your blather about completely unrelated innuendoes?

Show me your links showing how many people OUTSIDE North Korea have been killed so far by North Korean forces --- the topic of this thread. Do you want me to provide links to show how many people outside the USA have been kllled by US forces? Even SOUTH Korea contributed 20,000 troops to the killing machine in Iraq, and share a part of the blame for the massive deaths and destruction of that country. Which proves that South Korea is a much greater danger to world peace than North Korea.

Last edited by jtur88; 03-06-2011 at 09:46 AM..
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