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Right, the registers are important and they exist because there is what's called a prestige dialect that basically takes after Mandarin. There will be no real, strong movement to codify the colloquial language into the standard dialect because there's no need to do so. Mass media and high literacy rates arrived pretty suddenly for China and so there's going to be little separation of it and there had been a strong government push to never bring them into an official context. Colloquial Mandarin used to be far different from formal Mandarin, but with Mandarin becoming the official language, colloquial Mandarin was able to pervade formal register. This is extremely unlikely to happen for the other Chinese languages. And it definitely has not always been like that to that in terms of scope and extent. There was a strong social register in Taiwanese, but that's now just a course of academic study rather than something that gave cause to alter Taiwanese without the influence of Mandarin.
The preference for what word is now chosen in any dialect is now heavily influenced by Mandarin and it becomes progressively more so with each generation.
It's not just in Taiwan, but in all Chinese-speaking regions.
In some cities of mainland China, few young people speak local dialects. Those who do are also heavily influenced by standard Mandarin.
It's not just in Taiwan, but in all Chinese-speaking regions.
In some cities of mainland China, few young people speak local dialects. Those who do are also heavily influenced by standard Mandarin.
Yes, I'm guessing it's probably even more apparent without the official, though limp-wristed, support that Cantonese gets in Hong Kong or Minnan in Taiwan. I know Shanghainese really tries (and Shanghainese is one of the most already creolized forms of the Wu language), but without the proliferation of it in popular media or strong and consistent support as a language of instruction in primary education, it's one hell of an uphill slope.
It's understandable this would happen though, so I don't see any group getting into too much of a fit.
At least Hong Kong and Taiwan give it some lip service. Singapore seems to be in a serious drive to erase all the other Chinese languages for Mandarin.
I kind of wish the sinosphere would just wait a bit for machine translation to get better, but that's not a particularly economic solution.
In addition, among all Chinese dialects/languages, Min (闽) is the most different from Mandarin. So it may not be a good example.
For most Chinese people, Cantonese is much easier to learn than Taiwanese or other Min dialects.
I believe it, but having learned Mandarin and having been immersed in Cantonese at different times, I wouldn't say Cantonese as a spoken language is that simple to acquire. I picked up basic Dutch and German way faster. Then again, everyone's wired differently and living in different contexts, and my English has been substantially better than my Mandarin for the last decade and a half.
The upside is that Cantonese and Minnan will probably be much easier to learn for Chinese peoples in a decade from now than it is today, because both of them are working to meet them halfway.
It's kind of sad in some ways, but ah well. A lot of languages have more or less died or have been reduced to dialects for all language families in the last century or so. Who's really going to muster the resources to stop that? What's the really great reason for doing so? Imagine if China had been more open to outside technologies and modernization in the 19th and early 20th century and stayed as a single coherent country. Chances are these languages would be at much greater peril than they are today where there's at least some drive to preserve them. Look at this extremely sparse and non-comprehensive list of extinct languages. The American indigenous languages seriously got the shaft, so some continuing elision while we still have the modern day abilities to document a lot of Chinese languages is pretty damn great in comparison.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-14-2013 at 10:50 PM..
I believe it, but having learned Mandarin and having been immersed in Cantonese at different times, I wouldn't say Cantonese as a spoken language is that simple to acquire. I picked up basic Dutch and German way faster. Then again, everyone's wired differently and living in different contexts, and my English has been substantially better than my Mandarin for the last decade and a half.
The upside is that Cantonese and Minnan will probably be much easier to learn for Chinese peoples in a decade from now than it is today, because both of them are working to meet them halfway.
Dutch and German should be the same "language". Those who speak Hochdeutsch understand more Dutch than Swiss German.
I met a guy from Leipzig and he told me he understands 10% Zurich dialect. (Swiss German has no formal written language either.)
Yes, I'm guessing it's probably even more apparent without the official, though limp-wristed, support that Cantonese gets in Hong Kong or Minnan in Taiwan. I know Shanghainese really tries (and Shanghainese is one of the most already creolized forms of the Wu language), but without the proliferation of it in popular media or strong and consistent support as a language of instruction in primary education, it's one hell of an uphill slope.
It's understandable this would happen though, so I don't see any group getting into too much of a fit.
At least Hong Kong and Taiwan give it some lip service. Singapore seems to be in a serious drive to erase all the other Chinese languages for Mandarin.
I kind of wish the sinosphere would just wait a bit for machine translation to get better, but that's not a particularly economic solution.
This is sad. My grandmother still speaks Hokkien, but I think fewer of the younger generation are. The whole 'speak Mandarin' campaign as a way to unite the Chinese population also had the goal of trying to connect Singapore more with China and to an extent Taiwan where Mandarin is dominating. Minnan's last stronghold with probably be Taiwan, although it's still commonly heard in Fujian province.
I boggles my mind every time ignorant westerns talk about "mandarin speakers" versus Cantonese speakers etc.
For Christ's sake, do some fr**ing research before opening your mouth. There are hardly any "Mandarin speakers" in China. All people speak their different regional dialects. Even Beijing residents don't speak "Mandarin" as their mother tongue. Their dialect is close enough to but not the same as the official language known as "mandarin".
So it is stupid to say "the Wu" or "Cantonese" people are different because they don't speak Mandarin. They do when they have to communicate with people from other areas. Cantonese and WU are simply two large dialects among the many in China, and that doesn't make them any different from the rest of the Chinese people.
People in China grow up speaking all sorts of regional dialects, and it is when they go to primary school that they start learning this official language called "Mandarin", which is largely based on northern dialects.
Southern dialects are more distinct from northern dialects in terms of vocabulary and pronunciation, true, but that doesn't make them "languages whatsoever. A northern Chinese after living in Shanghai for 2 years can pretty much understand the Wu dialect well, and one from Shanghai can understand Cantonese after watching 100 Cantonese movies. They are different but at the end of the day, similar enough to be called one language. besides, all the written form is pretty much the same.
I hope westerners can stop saying words like "Mandarin" speakers for the following reasons
1) very few people are raised up speaking Mandarin. They speak various regional dialects.
2) people speaking southern dialects speak Mandarin too. If a Pekinese is considered mandarin speaker, so should be a Cantonese (unless he is illiterate and can't speak it).
3) Except for a few provinces, most Chinese provinces have dialects vastly different from Mandarin. Cantonese, Wu, Cantonese, minnan, hokkien are simply some of the well-known ones. If that makes these people different ethnicity, well, you will have hundreds of enthinicities in China.
Let me ask again, what the hell is a Mandarin speaker? Someone who speaks and only speaks Mandarin as his mother tongue? These people hardly exist in China.
I boggles my mind every time ignorant westerns talk about "mandarin speakers" versus Cantonese speakers etc.
For Christ's sake, do some fr**ing research before opening your mouth. There are hardly any "Mandarin speakers" in China. All people speak their different regional dialects. Even Beijing residents don't speak "Mandarin" as their mother tongue. Their dialect is close enough to but not the same as the official language known as "mandarin".
So it is stupid to say "the Wu" or "Cantonese" people are different because they don't speak Mandarin. They do when they have to communicate with people from other areas. Cantonese and WU are simply two large dialects among the many in China, and that doesn't make them any different from the rest of the Chinese people.
People in China grow up speaking all sorts of regional dialects, and it is when they go to primary school that they start learning this official language called "Mandarin", which is largely based on northern dialects.
Southern dialects are more distinct from northern dialects in terms of vocabulary and pronunciation, true, but that doesn't make them "languages whatsoever. A northern Chinese after living in Shanghai for 2 years can pretty much understand the Wu dialect well, and one from Shanghai can understand Cantonese after watching 100 Cantonese movies. They are different but at the end of the day, similar enough to be called one language. besides, all the written form is pretty much the same.
I hope westerners can stop saying words like "Mandarin" speakers for the following reasons
1) very few people are raised up speaking Mandarin. They speak various regional dialects.
2) people speaking southern dialects speak Mandarin too. If a Pekinese is considered mandarin speaker, so should be a Cantonese (unless he is illiterate and can't speak it).
3) Except for a few provinces, most Chinese provinces have dialects vastly different from Mandarin. Cantonese, Wu, Cantonese, minnan, hokkien are simply some of the well-known ones. If that makes these people different ethnicity, well, you will have hundreds of enthinicities in China.
Let me ask again, what the hell is a Mandarin speaker? Someone who speaks and only speaks Mandarin as his mother tongue? These people hardly exist in China.
GOT IT???
I'm a native Mandarin and Taiwanese speaker.
I am an ignorant Westerner. So sad.
Also, it's a term in English. Ignorant westerners can probably refer to it however their language refers to it. They can call it cacaboobies if that's the most common term for it. I am a native cacaboobies speaker.
Yue and Minnan may be separate languages, as they are actually more different compared to Spanish and Portuguese, or Spanish and Italian. But Yue and Minnan people are not separate ethnicities. They consider themselves to have Chinese ancestry, both language also have Sinitic/Chinese roots. The same way, in Europe, they do not really consider themselves to be of separate ethnicities, maybe different nationalities. A Portuguese is a different nationality from a Spaniard (one who speaks Castilian), but never have I heard of the Portuguese or Spanish claim they are of different "ethnicities". Galicians have Spanish nationality, but probably not separate ethnicity.
Yue and Minnan may be separate languages, as they are actually more different compared to Spanish and Portuguese, or Spanish and Italian. But Yue and Minnan people are not separate ethnicities. They consider themselves to have Chinese ancestry, both language also have Sinitic/Chinese roots. The same way, in Europe, they do not really consider themselves to be of separate ethnicities, maybe different nationalities. A Portuguese is a different nationality from a Spaniard (one who speaks Castilian), but never have I heard of the Portuguese or Spanish claim they are of different "ethnicities". Galicians have Spanish nationality, but probably not separate ethnicity.
Actually in Europe it does seem nationality = ethnicity. Dutch consider themselves a different ethnicity to Germans. In the same way, I think it's only because of imperialism that Minnanese people are not a separate ethnicity to Mandarin speakers.
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