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There are social economic levels in every country, it is not where you are it is where you are at. The most wealthy man in the world was at time a Mexican, and thousands of poor Mexicans sneak into America illegally.
There's no question China was poor in 1990 (or even 2000) compared to now, but do you think the numbers from China are trustworthy? Also, has it trickled down to everyone in China or is it only a small minority of people who have benefited?
How does the life of an average Chinese person compare - is it most comparable to India, America, Latin America or western Europe?
I think the numbers are all right - could be inflated somewhat but not much. The thing is, it doesn't matter how much the GDP numbers show. What matters more is are people enjoying a much better living standards than 20 or 30 years ago? And the answer is yes, dramatically better.
It's fair to say some people benefited more than others, often undeservingly, but it is wrong to claim only a small minority have benefited. Most Chinese got to benefit from this boom, from the very poorest to the elite.
I don't know what is an average Chinese person honestly. It is the social mobility that matters more. In the old days, people are chained to their one job for life, no matter how talented you are, you have to work like everyone else and wait your turn to be promoted. Now opportunities are open for those with talents and good work ethnics. My family is just an "average" family 20 years ago. We had our first TV (B&W) when I was about 7 and a few years later a refrigerator, which was a big deal. I remember my father wiping the fridge every day as if it were a piece of jewelry. My mother hand made many clothes for us - at that time most mothers do that because buying something off the shelf is expensive. We never worried about food but my parents did need to save the best for us. Does that sound an average family to you? Most likely.
Now, my brother makes a good life in Shanghai. They own two condos, a 3 bedroom and a 2 bed, both fully paid off with no mortgage, with a combined market price of $1.5-2 million (my guess). They have two cars including a SUV and both drive to work. The kid attends English language private school. They also have great medical insurance provided by the companies. Do they have a good life? Yes. Are they considered wealthy? not at all, at least not by local standards. They consider themselves among the middle of the pack. Most of my college classmates in Shanghai lead a similar life, some are better, some are worse. I myself work in Canada, and with a master's degree, I doubt my income will stand out among them (I know for a fact that my after tax income is at least 20% lower than my brother)
How does it compared with America, or India or Europe? You'd be the judge. The truth is, in the past 20 years, fewer and fewer Chinese look at America and Europe in awe. Especially those who have been to western countries, instead of being completely overwhelmed by the western lifestyle in the old days, now they increasingly compare the pros and cons, because they know whatever they may have in America, they can totally make it in China too. In 2014, three of my friends quite their job (paying $80k to 120k judging by their qualifications) and left the US to go back to China. Are they stupid to go back if life will be so much worse? Europe? Honestly, countries like Spain or Italy are hardly admired. UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, maybe a little, but people know the British or the Germans don't really have a vastly superior life.
Of course it is Shanghai and my bother somehow made it to the mid-management position. But the fact is he had no "connections" nor a wealthy family to provide any kind of help, and he is by no means an exceptionally successful case in Chinese cities. And that's the real progress of China in the past 3 decades. I am not denying millions of Chinese are still living under poor condition, for a variety of reasons, and maybe for a long time, but it is fair to say "the China miracle is largely exaggerated"? I would strongly disagree. The opportunities are there, and those who never dared to go outside their comfort zone will of course harvest nothing.
You asked about average Chinese. The thing is, there is no average Chinese. Unlike in western countries, income in China varies massively. Official median income means absolutely nothing because so much is hidden. You make it or you don't, and if you don't, you live a typical developing country lifestyle (could range from bad to soso), and if you do (no need to be exceptionally successful), there is nothing for you to admire anything in America.
Last edited by botticelli; 03-20-2015 at 02:10 PM..
Of course it is Shanghai and my bother somehow made it to the mid-management position. But the fact is he had no "connections" nor a wealthy family to provide any kind of help, and he is by no means an exceptionally successful case in Chinese cities. And that's the real progress of China in the past 3 decades. I am not denying millions of Chinese are still living under poor condition, for a variety of reasons, and maybe for a long time, but it is fair to say "the China miracle is largely exaggerated"? I would strongly disagree. The opportunities are there, and those who never dared to go outside their comfort zone will of course harvest nothing.
Do you think the average Chinese person has the same opportunities as someone from Shanghai though? I doubt it, then again here in America social mobility is not great either!
I think the numbers are all right - could be inflated somewhat but not much. The thing is, it doesn't matter how much the GDP numbers show. What matters more is are people enjoying a much better living standards than 20 or 30 years ago? And the answer is yes, dramatically better.
It's fair to say some people benefited more than others, often undeservingly, but it is wrong to claim only a small minority have benefited. Most Chinese got to benefit from this boom, from the very poorest to the elite.
I don't know what is an average Chinese person honestly. It is the social mobility that matters more. In the old days, people are chained to their one job for life, no matter how talented you are, you have to work like everyone else and wait your turn to be promoted. Now opportunities are open for those with talents and good work ethnics. My family is just an "average" family 20 years ago. We had our first TV (B&W) when I was about 7 and a few years later a refrigerator, which was a big deal. I remember my father wiping the fridge every day as if it were a piece of jewelry. My mother hand made many clothes for us - at that time most mothers do that because buying something off the shelf is expensive. We never worried about food but my parents did need to save the best for us. Does that sound an average family to you? Most likely.
Now, my brother makes a good life in Shanghai. They own two condos, a 3 bedroom and a 2 bed, both fully paid off with no mortgage, with a combined market price of $1.5-2 million (my guess). They have two cars including a SUV and both drive to work. The kid attends English language private school. They also have great medical insurance provided by the companies. Do they have a good life? Yes. Are they considered wealthy? not at all, at least not by local standards. They consider themselves among the middle of the pack. Most of my college classmates in Shanghai lead a similar life, some are better, some are worse. I myself work in Canada, and with a master's degree, I doubt my income will stand out among them (I know for a fact that my after tax income is at least 20% lower than my brother)
How does it compared with America, or India or Europe? You'd be the judge. The truth is, in the past 20 years, fewer and fewer Chinese look at America and Europe in awe. Especially those who have been to western countries, instead of being completely overwhelmed by the western lifestyle in the old days, now they increasingly compare the pros and cons, because they know whatever they may have in America, they can totally make it in China too. In 2014, three of my friends quite their job (paying $80k to 120k judging by their qualifications) and left the US to go back to China. Are they stupid to go back if life will be so much worse? Europe? Honestly, countries like Spain or Italy are hardly admired. UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, maybe a little, but people know the British or the Germans don't really have a vastly superior life.
Of course it is Shanghai and my bother somehow made it to the mid-management position. But the fact is he had no "connections" nor a wealthy family to provide any kind of help, and he is by no means an exceptionally successful case in Chinese cities. And that's the real progress of China in the past 3 decades. I am not denying millions of Chinese are still living under poor condition, for a variety of reasons, and maybe for a long time, but it is fair to say "the China miracle is largely exaggerated"? I would strongly disagree. The opportunities are there, and those who never dared to go outside their comfort zone will of course harvest nothing.
You asked about average Chinese. The thing is, there is no average Chinese. Unlike in western countries, income in China varies massively. Official median income means absolutely nothing because so much is hidden. You make it or you don't, and if you don't, you live a typical developing country lifestyle (could range from bad to soso), and if you do (no need to be exceptionally successful), there is nothing for you to admire anything in America.
In the end, it's all moot because no matter how much money you have, or what SUV you drive, if you are low class with no "xiu yang" and lack any kind of civic understanding of the world (like spitting everywhere, loud and peeing on the street, eating dogs and endangered animals), the rest of humanity will still see you as low class peasants.
In the end, it's all moot because no matter how much money you have, or what SUV you drive, if you are low class with no "xiu yang" and lack any kind of civic understanding of the world (like spitting everywhere, loud and peeing on the street, eating dogs and endangered animals), the rest of humanity will still see you as low class peasants.
Yeah the Chinese Communist Party had to come out and tell them they would be in trouble coming back to China if they act like fools overseas. The CCP had good reason for that.
Yeah the Chinese Communist Party had to come out and tell them they would be in trouble coming back to China if they act like fools overseas. The CCP had good reason for that.
I am in total agreement with the above statement! As it is, the CCP is concerned over how irritated other nations are with mainland Chinese tourists.
There's no question China was poor in 1990 (or even 2000) compared to now, but do you think the numbers from China are trustworthy? Also, has it trickled down to everyone in China or is it only a small minority of people who have benefited?
How does the life of an average Chinese person compare - is it most comparable to India, America, Latin America or western Europe?
I think the data are probably more or less inflated, but it's still up there somewhere. It's not like the GDP of China is actually 20% less than the one IMF provided or something.
As for the life in China compares to other parts of the world, it's probably subjective. The complaints I hear from people I know are usually not materialistic, but rather stuff that can't be measured by economic development, such as air pollution, censorship, or societal unpleasantness etc.
I think the data are probably more or less inflated, but it's still up there somewhere. It's not like the GDP of China is actually 20% less than the one IMF provided or something.
As for the life in China compares to other parts of the world, it's probably subjective. The complaints I hear from people I know are usually not materialistic, but rather stuff that can't be measured by economic development, such as air pollution, censorship, or societal unpleasantness etc.
I think while the CCP has made vast improvements, some of their economic policy that they have made is not sound; one day, it is going to come down tumbling all on them, and dragging the rest of us into the mud with them.
Conditions can vary a lot across China, and there are some rural areas with rich villagers and de facto slums in cities. China has a higher GDP per capita than most of SE Asia, South Asia and Africa, it also has higher ratio of educated professionals, such as doctors and engineers than many other developing countries, contributing to the development. China has always been an unequal society since antiquity.
Exactly, why is rural living always has to be poor. The rural folk make the meat, veggies, and fruits we all eat. I am sure most of the mines are also located further from cities.
Exactly, why is rural living always has to be poor. The rural folk make the meat, veggies, and fruits we all eat. I am sure most of the mines are also located further from cities.
That is because rural China is really a poor region of poor farmers. A nation cannot be rich if it has poor farmers.
China's agricultural industry is the exact opposite of what the US and Australia has achieved. the US is an agricultural global powerhouse. The US agricultural industry is incredibly productive and competitive and can compete unrestrained with market forces
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