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Got it, so you think a country where each household have 5 adults earning $2500 each, is richer than a country where each household has 2 adults earning $3000 each?
Still absurd.
No, you are absurd. There would not be a country that ONLY has working adults.
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Originally Posted by Camlon
That is why we should compare gross income across countries, not net income.
Society isn't losing the money taken in taxes, it is just distributed to someone else.
Lol no. Nobody compares gross salaries. Taxes are often spent on complete bull**** and the distribution is usually a complete joke. Your thinking is the reason why far right is on the rise all over Europe: people are fed up with their ridiculously high taxes being spent irresponsibly. One example is the utility prices in Europe now. These crazy high tax countries have allowed their utlity prices to go off the roof which has caused massive inflation and malcontent, while a very low tax country like Taiwan has been able to subsidise it effectively. Electricity on average is 0.09/kwh here and petroleum is around $1/litre and we import everything. Just sayin'.
That is just stupid. Germans can afford to buy iPhone, they just have different spending priorities. If you look at other spending like vacations and recreation then Germany would be ahead.
As I mentioned to you before. A typical family in Hong Kong would have to spend a lot more on housing and child care, leading to very little left over to spend on other things.
That's funny because vacation expense is very high for HKers.
No, you are absurd. There would not be a country that ONLY has working adults.
You don't make extreme examples because they are realistic, but to highlight the flaws of your logic.
I will give you an example that makes sense. Country A has on average 1.5 adult and 4 kids with an average income of $5000. Country B has 1.5 adult and 1 kid and an income of $2500. Then most people would assume that country A is richer than country B. That is what the adjustment is for.
It is not for countries that have large households because they have many adults living under the same roof because they can't afford to get their own place.
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Lol no. Nobody compares gross salaries. Taxes are often spent on complete bull**** and the distribution is usually a complete joke. Your thinking is the reason why far right is on the rise all over Europe: people are fed up with their ridiculously high taxes being spent irresponsibly.
When I searched for "List of countries by average wage". The first result showed gross salaries and didn't even mention net salary. You are talking nonsense again.
And the far right in Europe is pro-welfare too.
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That's funny because vacation expense is very high for HK.
That is not vacation spending. It does not include domestic spending and Germans often go on vacation in their own country. In addition, it includes non-tourism travel. It is also outdated as we live in 2022 and Hong Kong people aren't traveling anymore.
You don't make extreme examples because they are realistic, but to highlight the flaws of your logic.
I will give you an example that makes sense. Country A has on average 1.5 adult and 4 kids with an average income of $5000. Country B has 1.5 adult and 1 kid and an income of $2500. Then most people would assume that country A is richer than country B. That is what the adjustment is for.
It is not for countries that have large households because they have many adults living under the same roof because they can't afford to get their own place.
When I searched for "List of countries by average wage". The first result showed gross salaries and didn't even mention net salary. You are talking nonsense again.
And the far right in Europe is pro-welfare too.
That is not vacation spending. It does not include domestic spending and Germans often go on vacation in their own country. In addition, it includes non-tourism travel. It is also outdated as we live in 2022 and Hong Kong people aren't traveling anymore.
If you actually did some research before you made claims, then I wouldn't need to spend all my time correcting you.
For instance, you first claimed that welfare benefits are irrelevant and only good in certain European countries. When I showed you that there are benefits in most European countries and it really makes a difference for families then you said it cannot be compared.
Then I pointed out that we can use gross salaries and then you claimed that "No one uses gross figures" and "far-right is on the rise in Europe because of welfare" which are both completely false. A simple search for wages on Google would show you gross figures and European far-right parties are pro-welfare, provided it is for native residents.
If you actually did some research before you made claims, then I wouldn't need to spend all my time correcting you.
For instance, you first claimed that welfare benefits are irrelevant and only good in certain European countries. When I showed you that there are benefits in most European countries and it really makes a difference for families then you said it cannot be compared.
Then I pointed out that we can use gross salaries and then you claimed that "No one uses gross figures" and "far-right is on the rise in Europe because of welfare" which are both completely false. A simple search for wages on Google would show you gross figures and European far-right parties are pro-welfare, provided it is for native residents.
Again, nobody gives a **** about gross salaries. That's just a fact. If you do you are the only one. Even your favourite misinformation troll farm Numbeo also only compares net salaries. Welfare benefits are not completely irrelevant but they are irrelevant to actual income.
And I said far-right is on the rise in Europe because the taxes are used irresponsibly, not because of welfare.
Anyway I'm done here. Europe is ****ed and it's not my problem.
Again, nobody gives a **** about gross salaries. That's just a fact.
Saying something louder doesn't make it true.
All I need to prove you wrong is to search for "average wage by country" and tap the first wiki result. There it will show gross salaries not net salaries.
Gross salaries are also common in the USA, even though states have different income taxes.
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Welfare benefits are not completely irrelevant but they are irrelevant to actual income.
Strange how Western Europeans are among the happiest in the world if welfare has no positive impact on their life.
Maybe you could explain what makes Western Europeans so happy?
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And I said far-right is on the rise in Europe because the taxes are used irresponsibly, not because of welfare.
If you had used 1 minute to check some of the far-right platforms, you would realize that they are pro-welfare.
But I guess you don't want to do that and just scream louder when people prove that you are misinformed.
All I need to prove you wrong is to search for "average wage by country" and tap the first wiki result. There it will show gross salaries not net salaries.
Gross salaries are also common in the USA, even though states have different income taxes.
That does not prove me wrong in any way.
And gross salaries are common in America because it's always in the context within America. States have different tax schemes but their differences are not particularly jarring. Take home income is just as commonly talked about, if not more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
Strange how Western Europeans are among the happiest in the world if welfare has no positive impact on their life.
Maybe you could explain what makes Western Europeans so happy?
Northern Europe is "happy". Western Europe not particularly. Especially not now with the war and the inflation and the crippling debt and the upcoming recession, which Germans brought on themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
If you had used 1 minute to check some of the far-right platforms, you would realize that they are pro-welfare.
But I guess you don't want to do that and just scream louder when people prove that you are misinformed.
Again, I never claimed far-right in Europe were anti-welfare. They are against where their tax money is allegedly spent on - immigrants. Now I don't think immigrants or refugees to Europe are a problem, but the fact that tax money is spent so irresponsibly on other pointless things instead of actually aiding the poor and the middle class is the reason why people were manipulated into buying anti-immigrant and neo-nazi ideologies.
Last edited by Greysholic; 07-20-2022 at 10:24 PM..
As long as US$1 buys a different amount of things in different places at the same time, PPP will continue to be relevant. One of the problems with nominal vs PPP is that governments can prop up the first one by simply printing money which affects the exchange rates. There is no such thing in PPP. What actuslly counts is the purchasing power of a certwin amount of money.
I would contend that NOMINAL GDP is more appropriate to account for a country's overall economic size/power or the country's GDP at the global stage.
whereas GDP (PPP) is more accurate in measuring GDP per capita as it takes into account local purchasing power which is more applicable at individual level (hence per capita).
And gross salaries are common in America because it's always in the context within America. States have different tax schemes but their differences are not particularly jarring. Take home income is just as commonly talked about, if not more.
You said nobody cares about gross salaries. If that was the case, nobody would use gross salaries and the first wiki result on google for "wages per country" would be net salaries. But in reality the first result is gross salaries.
That debunks your argument that nobody cares about gross salaries.
Also, state taxes in America go all the way to 13%. If they really agreed with you that it provides them no benefits, then they would use net salary in income comparison and they would all vote for low tax politicans. The reason they don't is that many Americans disagree with you and think states with higher taxes have better public services.
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Northern Europe is "happy". Western Europe not particularly.
The data disagree with you. While northern Europe is the highest, other countries like Germany, Netherlands, Austria, UK and Switzerland are also high.
Finland 7.82
Denmark 7.64
Iceland 7.56
Switzerland 7.51
Netherlands 7.41
Luxembourg 7.40
Sweden 7.38
Norway 7.37
Israel 7.36
New Zealand 7.20
Austria 7.16
Australia 7.16
Ireland 7.14
Germany 7.03
Canada 7.03
United States 6.98
United Kingdom 6.94
...
Taiwan: 6.51
Singapore: 6.48
...
Hong Kong: 5.42
Finland is the least rich Scandinavian country, but top the index in happiness. There is also a big gap between Singapore/Taiwan and Hong Kong. My argument is that Hong Kong standard of living is not that great because the salary is mediocre and the cost of living is high. But you think Hong Kong is cheaper than Europe and hence the standard of living is similar to the Netherlands and probably Finland too.
So please explain to us why Finland is so happy and why Hong Kong is not. And don't use the NSL as an argument as Hong Kong was just as unhappy in the past.
Again, I never claimed far-right in Europe were anti-welfare. They are against where their tax money is allegedly spent on - immigrants. Now I don't think immigrants or refugees to Europe are a problem, but the fact that tax money is spent so irresponsibly on other pointless things instead of actually aiding the poor and the middle class is the reason why people were manipulated into buying anti-immigrant and neo-nazi ideologies.
Are you seriously arguing that far-right would not succeed in Europe if they had low taxes?
If that is your argument, then you clearly know nothing about Europe. First off, low-tax European countries like Switzerland are not more pro-immigrants than for instance high-tax Sweden. Secondly, if you talk to people who are anti-immigration in Europe, you will notice that they talk a lot more about culture, crime and ghettos than abuse of taxpayers' money. This is no coincidence, it is because they see immigrants as a threat to their culture.
Misguided politicians sometimes try to show that Muslim immigrants aren't doing that badly, but it never works, because that is not what they really care about. What they care about is their community not turning into places like Rosengård, Malmö.
You said nobody cares about gross salaries. If that was the case, nobody would use gross salaries and the first wiki result on google for "wages per country" would be net salaries. But in reality the first result is gross salaries.
That debunks your argument that nobody cares about gross salaries.
Also, state taxes in America go all the way to 13%. If they really agreed with you that it provides them no benefits, then they would use net salary in income comparison and they would all vote for low tax politicans. The reason they don't is that many Americans disagree with you and think states with higher taxes have better public services.
I am really sick of your bs. People who live in the real world only care about take home income. That's all there is to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
The data disagree with you. While northern Europe is the highest, other countries like Germany, Netherlands, Austria, UK and Switzerland are also high.
Finland 7.82
Denmark 7.64
Iceland 7.56
Switzerland 7.51
Netherlands 7.41
Luxembourg 7.40
Sweden 7.38
Norway 7.37
Israel 7.36
New Zealand 7.20
Austria 7.16
Australia 7.16
Ireland 7.14
Germany 7.03
Canada 7.03
United States 6.98
United Kingdom 6.94
...
Taiwan: 6.51
Singapore: 6.48
...
Hong Kong: 5.42
Finland is the least rich Scandinavian country, but top the index in happiness. There is also a big gap between Singapore/Taiwan and Hong Kong. My argument is that Hong Kong standard of living is not that great because the salary is mediocre and the cost of living is high. But you think Hong Kong is cheaper than Europe and hence the standard of living is similar to the Netherlands and probably Finland too.
So please explain to us why Finland is so happy and why Hong Kong is not. And don't use the NSL as an argument as Hong Kong was just as unhappy in the past.
Lol you claimed Hong Kong's income was as low as Portugal, which is completely bull****, and now you are moving the goalpost to talk about unhappiness. You are merely showing how wrong you are.
HKers are unhappy because a) HK culture is rude, aggressive, materialistic, and unfriendly, which naturally makes people unhappy, b) HK's politics is a complete disaster, and c) Asians are by nature less happy so all Asian countries score low in this happiness report. It has nothing to do with your claim about income. Japan and Korea are also unhappy for similar cultural reasons. This happiness report's methodology is extremely biased.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon
Are you seriously arguing that far-right would not succeed in Europe if they had low taxes?
If that is your argument, then you clearly know nothing about Europe. First off, low-tax European countries like Switzerland are not more pro-immigrants than for instance high-tax Sweden. Secondly, if you talk to people who are anti-immigration in Europe, you will notice that they talk a lot more about culture, crime and ghettos than abuse of taxpayers' money. This is no coincidence, it is because they see immigrants as a threat to their culture.
Misguided politicians sometimes try to show that Muslim immigrants aren't doing that badly, but it never works, because that is not what they really care about. What they care about is their community not turning into places like Rosengård, Malmö.
I am bored with you. Your argument is always so poorly reasoned.
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