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Old 01-20-2017, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,290,935 times
Reputation: 20827

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsuleneo View Post
Phillippines (sic) is a minion of The Communist Party of China. You think that's a good thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
I'm happy we are getting uninvolved in Philippines future squabbles...we also need to pull out of S. korea, Japan, Germany, Middle East.

Duterte is an idiot. If PHils got their corruption under control, their citizens would all benefit...that's their biggest problem and why their citizens have to leave the Phils and work all over the world. i've had many Filipinos work for me over the last 15 years, they are great workers.
I have a number of friends who are Filipino expatriates, and are prospering; many of them opted for Canadian rather than American citizenship, primarily because of the stronger "safety net" provided in return for greater discipline and observance of "the rules" under the Canadian system. The majority of them are of Ilocano tribal extraction -- the same group as deposed strongman Marcos -- but their views are not particularly doctrinal or dogmatic.

In the many conversations we've shared over a friendship of nearly thirty years, I've been given to understand that the corruption, the power-struggles, and the waste such polarization entails are linked to connubial and tribal traditions which predate the Spanish conquest and 300-year colonial rule, and reconcile easily with the nation's adopted/imposed (take your pick) Roman Catholicism which, as many of us understand, adapts itself well to a multiplicity of changeable societies.

The people I've been privileged to come to know are outstanding examples of what can happen when an individual relocates from a corrupt and over-structured economy and society to one in which an open economy offers greater respect and reward in return for individual effort.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-20-2017 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:35 PM
 
3,437 posts, read 3,272,046 times
Reputation: 2508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Well, it sounds like you want to change the discussion to ancient history.

In this century, and most of last century, Japan has had a declining birthrate, etc.

Anyways, I'd rather keep this to our lifetimes...if we keep going back to other centuries, it'll be completely illogical to connect to the Philippines not wanting to be U.S.-centric in 2017.
am just telling you that before china opened to world trade, there is nothing good to say about China.
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Old 01-21-2017, 10:24 AM
 
Location: In the heights
37,022 posts, read 39,094,778 times
Reputation: 21056
Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
i submit that if the Philippines can control its population, no matter how you naysayers thinks about Filipinos, it can rise above these problems no matter how daunting they are. if they can stop population growth, there is no need to build classrooms every year. that's just one example of the benefits of controlling the population
I don't think anyone is naysaying that the Philippines needs to control its population growth. Everyone's agreed on this as a large ongoing issue for decades.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:54 PM
 
14 posts, read 12,569 times
Reputation: 20
Whether you admit it or not, the US was using the Philippines to push China, in the same way that China is using the South China Sea to push America. As a Filipino, no, I do NOT want to be another Vietnam or another Korea. A proxy war for superpowers. I don't want to die for the sake of their power games.

Even more so given the fact that the US has never treated us like an ally. It's ironic that Japan helps our country more than the US has ever helped us post-WW2. They have always treated us more like a servant, only caring if it directly benefits them (like in the Vietnam War when they needed bases). They give countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan state-of-the-art weapons, while we have to beg for Vietnam-era antiques to fight our century-old terrorist problem.

The latter incidentally started because of the American atrocities against Muslim natives in the southern Philippines during the Philippine-American War in the early 1900s. Then again, like the Spanish-American and the Mexican-American War, very few Americans are even aware of that war, much less know the details.

Obama's treatment of Duterte exemplified that fact. I have family in the US, but if the US treats us like this, it's better if their government stay out of our political affairs altogether. I like Americans. I just don't trust the American government (especially now with Trump).

We're poor and need to pull our s*** together (and yes, overpopulation, corruption, poverty, all of these are KNOWN problems to us Filipinos), and we're not exactly in any position to bargain with anyone. Which is exactly why weaning us off America's doubled-edged "help" is what I think this country needs. We need to get our dignity back after a century of being a lackey to condescending superpower.

And no, almost all Filipinos distrust China far more than any other country. Duterte may talk of friendship with China, but he knows as well as anyone that no Filipino would truly trust an autocratic government with expansionist tendencies. I don't think any of China's neighbors actually trust it.

Last edited by Existential Monkey; 01-22-2017 at 01:30 PM..
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:13 PM
 
5,722 posts, read 5,786,399 times
Reputation: 4381
I've read about the Philippine-American war I think it could have been avoided to be honest. The US never had any intention of keeping the Philippines forever imo. Remember the US got it from the treaty with Spain so in a way the Treaty of Paris was one of the best things that ever happened for the Philippines. The Philippines would have been raped if there was no US presence there back in that era.

The US only has so much money to spread around the problem is we waste too much money on certain other countries as you said. You're still better off with the US than China the US has no desire to control islands or the SCS.

Last edited by wanderlust76; 01-22-2017 at 09:33 PM..
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Macao
16,265 posts, read 43,077,286 times
Reputation: 10231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Existential Monkey View Post
Whether you admit it or not, the US was using the Philippines to push China, in the same way that China is using the South China Sea to push America. As a Filipino, no, I do NOT want to be another Vietnam or another Korea. A proxy war for superpowers. I don't want to die for the sake of their power games.

Even more so given the fact that the US has never treated us like an ally. It's ironic that Japan helps our country more than the US has ever helped us post-WW2. They have always treated us more like a servant, only caring if it directly benefits them (like in the Vietnam War when they needed bases). They give countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan state-of-the-art weapons, while we have to beg for Vietnam-era antiques to fight our century-old terrorist problem.

The latter incidentally started because of the American atrocities against Muslim natives in the southern Philippines during the Philippine-American War in the early 1900s. Then again, like the Spanish-American and the Mexican-American War, very few Americans are even aware of that war, much less know the details.

Obama's treatment of Duterte exemplified that fact. I have family in the US, but if the US treats us like this, it's better if their government stay out of our political affairs altogether. I like Americans. I just don't trust the American government (especially now with Trump).

We're poor and need to pull our s*** together (and yes, overpopulation, corruption, poverty, all of these are KNOWN problems to us Filipinos), and we're not exactly in any position to bargain with anyone. Which is exactly why weaning us off America's doubled-edged "help" is what I think this country needs. We need to get our dignity back after a century of being a lackey to condescending superpower.

And no, almost all Filipinos distrust China far more than any other country. Duterte may talk of friendship with China, but he knows as well as anyone that no Filipino would truly trust an autocratic government with expansionist tendencies. I don't think any of China's neighbors actually trust it.
I can certainly understand the frustration.

It's interesting reading 'between the lines'...the U.S. doesn't give the Phils as good as *stuff* as they give Afghanistan/Pakistan. What kind of partner is that?

Sounds like a one-directional relationship, the Philippines takes, but doesn't give anything back. Which I think is why there is a lot of American indifference about Duterte/Philippines wanting to sever the seemingly one-sided relationship.

Last edited by Tiger Beer; 01-22-2017 at 10:48 PM..
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Old 01-23-2017, 08:05 AM
 
Location: In the heights
37,022 posts, read 39,094,778 times
Reputation: 21056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Existential Monkey View Post
Whether you admit it or not, the US was using the Philippines to push China, in the same way that China is using the South China Sea to push America. As a Filipino, no, I do NOT want to be another Vietnam or another Korea. A proxy war for superpowers. I don't want to die for the sake of their power games.

Even more so given the fact that the US has never treated us like an ally. It's ironic that Japan helps our country more than the US has ever helped us post-WW2. They have always treated us more like a servant, only caring if it directly benefits them (like in the Vietnam War when they needed bases). They give countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan state-of-the-art weapons, while we have to beg for Vietnam-era antiques to fight our century-old terrorist problem.

The latter incidentally started because of the American atrocities against Muslim natives in the southern Philippines during the Philippine-American War in the early 1900s. Then again, like the Spanish-American and the Mexican-American War, very few Americans are even aware of that war, much less know the details.

Obama's treatment of Duterte exemplified that fact. I have family in the US, but if the US treats us like this, it's better if their government stay out of our political affairs altogether. I like Americans. I just don't trust the American government (especially now with Trump).

We're poor and need to pull our s*** together (and yes, overpopulation, corruption, poverty, all of these are KNOWN problems to us Filipinos), and we're not exactly in any position to bargain with anyone. Which is exactly why weaning us off America's doubled-edged "help" is what I think this country needs. We need to get our dignity back after a century of being a lackey to condescending superpower.

And no, almost all Filipinos distrust China far more than any other country. Duterte may talk of friendship with China, but he knows as well as anyone that no Filipino would truly trust an autocratic government with expansionist tendencies. I don't think any of China's neighbors actually trust it.
I don't really see this. There are bases, but there wasn't conscription of Filipinos nor a tax imposed upon them--instead, the US pays to be there. There had rarely been, if ever, any foreign trade fall-out over the US military presence. The US presidency has criticized other country's, including allies, over the last several decades and it's usually much to do about nothing as it doesn't effect much internal change. I think it's ironic to point to Japan as a better aid giver than the US is given the similar starting situations Japan and the Philippines were in at the end of the second war and how potentially destabilizing it is for Japan to have the Philippines and the US actually break from each other.

I think it's pretty clear that it is virtually entirely domestic issues that have the Philippines in its current state since the last several decades. The unfortunate thing is if the government of the country ends up using foreign bogeymen to explain any deficiencies in its own administration. That's a pretty common thing to do--it's actually happening in the US as well now!
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:03 AM
 
3,437 posts, read 3,272,046 times
Reputation: 2508
Duterte and some politicians before him have their correct foreign policy. the Philippines senate didn't renew the bases in 1992 but the problem is they didn't follow on what to fill the vacuum left behind by the americans. somehow, this anti Chinese sentiment is also the fault of the Chinese because as soon as the americans left, they seize on the reefs that were legally and traditionally within the EEZ of the Philippines.


and this deep hatred of trolls here against the Philippines, I believe is because the Philippines have the chutzpa to challenge the Chinese claims in the SCS.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:06 AM
 
5,722 posts, read 5,786,399 times
Reputation: 4381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogburn View Post
Educational post. I knew nothing about any of that stuff (still don't really, but now I know something to look up).

Thanks.
That was not an educational post. Pennyone is a China shill and probably a paid one at that and his info is probably controlled by his communist country. China made up the 9 dash line after Japan surrendered in WW2 claiming it was based on old sea maps that no one has ever seen lol. China is all about taking advantage of smaller countries and that's why if the Philippines doesn't have the US they are pretty much done for. After WWII and countries like Japan and the Philippines were decimated China saw it as an opportunity to start exploiting the situation. They're disgusting.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:01 AM
 
14 posts, read 12,569 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
I've read about the Philippine-American war I think it could have been avoided to be honest. The US never had any intention of keeping the Philippines forever imo. Remember the US got it from the treaty with Spain so in a way the Treaty of Paris was one of the best things that ever happened for the Philippines. The Philippines would have been raped if there was no US presence there back in that era.

The US only has so much money to spread around the problem is we waste too much money on certain other countries as you said. You're still better off with the US than China the US has no desire to control islands or the SCS.
Sure about that? Remember they've held on to Puerto Rico, Guam, Hawaii, and Cuba. Yes Cuba was technically independent by 1902 but the US retained the right to intervene whenever they wanted.

This was America's brief foray into imperialism and the height of yellow journalism. The Iraq War of the turn of the 20th century and widely discussed among western countries. Especially given that the US entered the colonial theatre at a time when most colonial empires were already breaking up. Read Mark Twain's political writings to understand the political atmosphere of the US at the time. He was one of the more prominent Americans who saw America's acquisition of the Philippines for what it was - a betrayal and an invasion.

Hundreds of thousands of people died during that war. And from the accounts of soldiers and the various atrocities committed during the war, they treated us as little more than dogs. Even coining the slur "island n****rs" for us. That's not the actions of a benevolent "protector".

Besides, the Philippines was not exactly in need of "civilization". Remember it was a Spanish colony for 300 years by this time. And it permeated every aspect of Filipino life. Much more than its neighbors under other colonial masters. The excuse of "protecting" and "teaching" Filipinos how to govern themselves is exactly that, an excuse. There were no threats from anyone except America itself, and we were perfectly capable of governing ourselves. The first Philippine Republic was actually established during the Philippine-American War, and it was from there that we derived our current national flag and date of independence (instead of July 4, the actual date the Americans released us).

Filipinos were also treated well under Queen isabel II of Spain by the late 1800s. Especially after the Spanish loss of most of their Latin American colonies (including Nueva Hispania, i.e. Mexico). Universal education was decreed and the rise of the educated middle class (the Ilustrados) was what allowed Filipinos to imagine greater political self-determination in the first place. But even then, only true rebels wanted independence, most of the Filipinos (including the national martyr, Jose Rizal) wanted direct representation in the Spanish court, and the prosecution of the corruption of colonial government officials.

The US only released the Philippines when espionage and diplomacy matured and became a far cheaper alternative for maintaining hegemonic influence rather than having to waste money on protectorates. Most of the coups and dictators of the mid-20th century were the result of the spy games of the US and the Soviets. Games which intermittently blossomed into full-blown proxy wars like the ones in Korea, Angola, Afghanistan, Cuba, and of course, Vietnam.

Last edited by Existential Monkey; 01-24-2017 at 03:02 AM..
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