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Old 12-21-2017, 07:18 PM
 
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Is it true that the numbers of mainland Chinese from other parts of China that have arrived into Shanghai have now overwhelmingly outnumbered the original Shanghainese speakers?

I hear Shanghainese is now dying out. Are there some sections of Shanghai that still have a majority Shanghainese speaking residents remaining or are they just now all mixed in all over the metropolis now?

From what I have heard and seeing clips taking place from Shanghai, it seems Mandarin speakers are the overwhelming majority of the city's population and speak like Beijingers.

It seems Shanghai is just another large extension of the Beijing culture now. On some level.
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by toby2016 View Post
Is it true that the numbers of mainland Chinese from other parts of China that have arrived into Shanghai have now overwhelmingly outnumbered the original Shanghainese speakers?

I hear Shanghainese is now dying out. Are there some sections of Shanghai that still have a majority Shanghainese speaking residents remaining or are they just now all mixed in all over the metropolis now?

From what I have heard and seeing clips taking place from Shanghai, it seems Mandarin speakers are the overwhelming majority of the city's population and speak like Beijingers.

It seems Shanghai is just another large extension of the Beijing culture now. On some level.
It's the same in all major cities of China. In the 1980s, 90% Chinese were "peasants", but now it is only 40%. Where do you think they moved to?

A major reason why Shanghai dialect is dying fast is that it's too "unique". Even people from nearby cities cannot communicate with them in dialects without barrier, so they prefer Mandarin. All young people from Suzhou, Hangzhou etc only speak Mandarin in Shanghai.

However they don't sound like Beijingers. Beijing accent is unique too, and it's very easy to tell. Shanghai Mandarin has some features of local dialect as well.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:02 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
It's the same in all major cities of China. In the 1980s, 90% Chinese were "peasants", but now it is only 40%. Where do you think they moved to?

A major reason why Shanghai dialect is dying fast is that it's too "unique". Even people from nearby cities cannot communicate with them in dialects without barrier, so they prefer Mandarin. All young people from Suzhou, Hangzhou etc only speak Mandarin in Shanghai.

However they don't sound like Beijingers. Beijing accent is unique too, and it's very easy to tell. Shanghai Mandarin has some features of local dialect as well.
Shanghainese is dying fast almost solely due to strong government support for Mandarin and the economic boom in Shanghai attracting many people from everywhere in China. You can see this in that even among the younger generation born and bred in Shanghai who grew up with Shanghainese speaking family and friends who speak less than stellar Shanghainese.

Suzhou and many of the other nearby Wu dialects except for Wenzhou dialect are pretty intelligible to someone that actually speaks Shanghainese with the largest distinguishing feature being accent and slang above any crucially different grammatical or phonological features.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-26-2017 at 02:10 PM..
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Shanghainese is dying fast almost solely due to strong government support for Mandarin and the economic boom in Shanghai attracting many people from everywhere in China.

Suzhou and many of the other nearby Wu dialects except for Wenzhou dialect are pretty intelligible to someone that actually speaks Shanghainese with the largest distinguishing feature being accent and slang above any crucially different grammatical or phonological features.
No. Shanghainese who are not used to Suzhou dialect can understand 50% at the best. The difference is much larger than Beijing vs Chengdu. Even some Beijingers can only understand 50% Chengdu dialect.

In old days, Shanghai residents were more exposed to Suzhou dialect. But that is another topic. In old days, Chinese people were more tolerant to different accents in general, because they had to.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
No. Shanghainese who are not used to Suzhou dialect can understand 50% at the best. The difference is much larger than Beijing vs Chengdu. Even some Beijingers can only understand 50% Chengdu dialect.

In old days, Shanghai residents were more exposed to Suzhou dialect. But that is another topic. In old days, Chinese people were more tolerant to different accents in general, because they had to.
That’a pretty far-fetched. A person who is actually fluent in Shanghainese should be able to have entire conversations with someone who is speaking Suzhou dialect. The accent difference will be noticeable and there’s a decent amount of Shanghai specific slang, but the idea of it being 50% intelligible is a ridiculously low number. At that point, it’s more likely that person is not a fluent speaker of Shanghainese.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:36 PM
 
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The reason Shanghainese is dying is because it’s not needed. Even without government intervention it would be disappearing. Shanghai is a major financial and trade center in China and globally. Of course Mandarin is going to take over as the dominate language as people come from other regions of China. My wife who lived in Shanghai for about a decade speaks some Shanghainese and its very different from Mandarin. Shanghainese is simply obsolete and will likely be completely gone in a few generations or less. China has so many dialects that are too different, it will be good for their country to get rid of them.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
That’a pretty far-fetched. A person who is actually fluent in Shanghainese should be able to have entire conversations with someone who is speaking Suzhou dialect. The accent difference will be noticeable and there’s a decent amount of Shanghai specific slang, but the idea of it being 50% intelligible is a ridiculously low number. At that point, it’s more likely that person is not a fluent speaker of Shanghainese.
When people have a conversation, they want full intelligibility, not struggling to understand each other. Just go ask some young people from Shanghai (who can speak Shanghainese). Unless they have some family connection with Suzhou, they cannot carry a conversation with a Suzhou speaker.

In old days people could, but as I mentioned it's because they had more exposure. Young people in China are very intolerant to different accents. When I traveled to Shandong, some friends with me could not understand local dialect, although Shandong dialect is very similar to standard Mandarin.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:43 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
When people have a conversation, they want full intelligibility, not struggling to understand each other. Just go ask some young people from Shanghai (who can speak Shanghainese). Unless they have some family connection with Suzhou, they cannot carry a conversation with a Suzhou speaker.

In old days people could, but as I mentioned it's because they had more exposure. Young people in China are very intolerant to different accents. When I traveled to Shandong, some friends with me could not understand local dialect, although Shandong dialect is very similar to standard Mandarin.
You mean ask myself or ask some relatives? Do you speak it, son? Suzhou dialect or Shanghainese?

If you cannot have a conversation with someone speaking in Suzhou dialect, then you are not a fluent speaker of Shanghainese. Full stop. Not true for Hangzhou and even more not true for Wenzhou, but this fiction about understanding 50% of Suzhou dialect is ridiculous.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:56 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
The reason Shanghainese is dying is because it’s not needed. Even without government intervention it would be disappearing. Shanghai is a major financial and trade center in China and globally. Of course Mandarin is going to take over as the dominate language as people come from other regions of China. My wife who lived in Shanghai for about a decade speaks some Shanghainese and its very different from Mandarin. Shanghainese is simply obsolete and will likely be completely gone in a few generations or less. China has so many dialects that are too different, it will be good for their country to get rid of them.
Okay, but that’s an effect not a cause. It is not needed because the government purposefully pushes use of Mandarin-derived Chinese above all else. This is completely intentional and a top down directive.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
You mean ask myself or ask some relatives? Do you speak it, son? Suzhou dialect or Shanghainese?

If you cannot have a conversation with someone speaking in Suzhou dialect, then you are not a fluent speaker of Shanghainese. Full stop. Not true for Hangzhou and even more not true for Wenzhou, but this fiction about understanding 50% of Suzhou dialect is ridiculous.
You are a linguist with knowledge of phonology and interest/aptitude in language. Ordinary Shanghainese are not.
I never lived in Shanghai for a long time but I do understand some Shanghainese, however I would not make a generalization to say all Chinese understand Shanghainese to the same extent, minimally.
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