HK Protesters are playing right into Chinese govt's hands by disrupting HK (places, airport)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It is funny how you are so against peaceful protest tactics. It clearly shows that you are not looking for a good solution, you just want to fight to the end.
You are clinically deluded if you think inviting Chinese ppl to a tea party would change their mind. Lol. It's pathetic.
Quote:
If you think 7 million people can force 1.4 billion people to accept their demands then you are out of your mind.
China will never accept the protestors demands, and the protestors cannot invade Beijing. Who do you think you are fooling?
I don't know how you have the confidence to say that all democratic, independence, or autonomous movements KNEW they had a chance. Many of them were facing even more lopsided power balance. At least in Hong Kong there's a lot of press coverage.
Quote:
Of course they will resort to the PLA if they invoke emergency powers, either directly or indirectly. The more protestors fight back during the first days after invoking emergency powers, the more China will use the PLA. There is no outcome where the people will rise up and beat the police, that is just beyond stupid.
So now you admit that violent protests could lead to tragedy. And we all know there is no good outcome from these protests.
So why are you not concerned, why do you support actions that will hurt the HK people?
We both support the protestors goals. That is the poll you tend to bring up.
There has been no recent polls about the protests, and if they should keep fighting to the end, but is is clear that a significant part of the HK population want the protests to stop and things to go back to normal.
The reason I say you do not care about the HK people is because you are willing to sacrifice Hong Kong to reach your goals. HK people do not want to see their city destroyed.
I'm done with you. You keep pretending to be neutral and as if you care about HK people but all you do is repeating your victim-blaming tactics and the stupid pigeonholes. My goals? Give me a ****ing break. All I am arguing here is that I support the protest and their aim whereas you and that other privileged German or Dutch hypocrite wouldn't shut the **** up about how violent they are and how they are influenced by Western media. If you've been trying to be subtle wumaos you have failed miserably.
Quote:
I do not think your plan will be successful.
I just pointed out that you are willing to sacrifice Hong Kong to turn western opinion against China. That is why you do not care about the outcome of the protest.
I don't have any plan. You came up with it.
Quote:
People who hate someone is often willing to let innocent people suffer to achieve their goals. For instance if you hate Trump, you might ask for a financial crisis. If you hate Iran leadership, you might celebrate US sanctions.
In your case Greysholic, I know that you have criticized Taiwan a lot, you do not think it is a good place to live. If you do not even like Taiwan, your home country, then you definitely do not like Hong Kong either. You also hate China and anyone who give them any support, which includes a lot of Hong Kong people.
This makes it very easy for you to let innocent people suffer to hurt China. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, but whenever I or anyone else mentioned the risks of the protests you never even bothered to respond. When I mentioned peaceful protest tactics you just laughed. You also clearly stated that waiting around for new leadership is not an option, even if it would lead to the best outcome.
It became clear to me that you do not actually care about what happends to Hong Kong people, they are just a pawn in your hate towards China.
You and your imagination.
Stop putting words in my mouth. And I haven't been criticising Taiwan for a while.
Quote:
I am not deciding what people in HK should think about China, I am merely saying what I think they should think about China. And of course that is my right, writing on a Western message board and all...
And who are you to say what they should think about China? Are you from there?
Quote:
The difference is that the US and Britain did not voice concern (which is fake, anyway) when there was police violence in France. But everyone seems to think they can meddle in China's internal affairs.
The protestors were way more violent in France. They were burning cars and shops. The protestors in Hong Kong did not no matter what kind of retarded news site you've been reading.
I'm done with you. You keep pretending to be neutral and as if you care about HK people but all you do is repeating your victim-blaming tactics and the stupid pigeonholes. My goals? Give me a ****ing break. All I am arguing here is that I support the protest and their aim whereas you and that other privileged German or Dutch hypocrite wouldn't shut the **** up about how violent they are and how they are influenced by Western media. If you've been trying to be subtle wumaos you have failed miserably.
I actually care about getting the best outcome for the HK people. You only care about hurting China, and is willing to sacrifice the HK people to achieve your goal.
I actually care about getting the best outcome for the HK people. You only care about hurting China, and is willing to sacrifice the HK people to achieve your goal.
Whatever you say. I simply don't care enough about China. Millions of Chinese people can die and I wouldn't bat an eye. Whether it's doing well or not is not my concern at all as long as they stay out of our business (which they wouldn't). And it has nothing to do with Hong Kong. I don't even like Hong Kong that much, I am merely supporting their legitimate exercise of freedom of assembly and freedom of speech, which you evidently do not.
Your mentality is so typical amongst the wumaos and the alternative rightists. They always complain about lack of freedom of speech simply because others would call their bull**** out, like how you always complain about how Sweden and Norway are too PC.
And for your information, protest definitely works better than your remarkably dumb tea parties.
I never used the word tea party, what I said is that they should talk to mainland tourists about their goals. This is a tactic often used by religious groups and it is quite effective. You apperently think that is stupid because you believe mainland chinese cannot be convinced, they are a lost cause.
And thats not a real victory. What they are doing is to give protestors their weakest demand, to show goodwill, so they can crack down on the protests. Dead or withdrawn is irrelevant, it does not prevent them from implementing the law on a future date.
The real demands like democracy is not coming. Protesting so hard that the economy crashes and potentially lead to a chinese crackdown is counterproductive. You never respond to this, because you do not care about the HK people, you only care about your hatred towards chinese people.
Only a person filled with hate towards chinese people could see a massacre and not care.
If I hated them I would rejoice in such event, but I would just be indifferent.
Quote:
I know, that is why you are willing to let innocent Hong Kong people get hurt to punish China.
I really do like Hong Kong, and I do not want to see the city destroyed.
Quote:
I never used the word tea party, what I said is that they should talk to mainland tourists about their goals. This is a tactic often used by religious groups and it is quite effective. You apperently think that is stupid because you believe mainland chinese cannot be convinced, they are a lost cause.
Well, they are a lost cause.
Quote:
And thats not a real victory. What they are doing is to give protestors their weakest demand, to show goodwill, so they can crack down on the protests. Dead or withdrawn is irrelevant, it does not prevent them from implementing the law on a future date.
The real demands like democracy is not coming. Protesting so hard that the economy crashes and potentially lead to a chinese crackdown is counterproductive. You never respond to this, because you do not care about the HK people, you only care about your hatred towards chinese people.
If they hadn't protested at all they wouldn't even have this demand fulfilled.
They have formally withdrawn the extradition bill as a pean to the protesters. It's a good overture and a step in the right direction, but about a month and a half late and so I don't know how much good it will do at this point. Many protesters will likely push ahead and go for broke. They've had two months to find more reasons to be infuriated and that will take time to simmer down.
Beijing literally can't afford to raid HK - the economy here isn't doing well, and raiding HK would cause damage to both HK's and the mainland's markets that they clearly can't shoulder at the moment. It's very clear that they weren't expecting this, or the economic situation, to be where it is now and have been grappling with trying to figure out how to deal with it. We will see what happens next.
Beijing could raid HK at any time in the same way that we could all go jump off a bridge at any moment. It's physically possible but a terrible idea that once done, can't be undone.
If I hated them I would rejoice in such event, but I would just be indifferent.
You just admitted you would not care if millions of chinese die.
That is not a normal reaction, that is a reaction of either a psychopath or a person who is filled with hate.
Quote:
Well, they are a lost cause.
No wonder you think that. If you told me that you would not care if thousands of Norwegians die, I would not listen to a word of what you are saying.
I personally have no problems making Chinese more pro-HK, but it requires you to debate from their position.
Quote:
If they hadn't protested at all they wouldn't even have this demand fulfilled.
I never said they should not protest at all. I supported the initial protests, which led to Carrie Lam going out and say the extradition bill is dead.
I do not support the violent protests that is sending Hong Kong towards a massive recession, and could lead to a crackdown where Hong Kong would lose all their freedoms.
You seem to have zero concern how such a recession will affect ordinary people in Hong Kong, or the effect of a crackdown.
They have formally withdrawn the extradition bill as a pean to the protesters. It's a good overture and a step in the right direction, but about a month and a half late and so I don't know how much good it will do at this point. Many protesters will likely push ahead and go for broke. They've had two months to find more reasons to be infuriated and that will take time to simmer down.
Beijing literally can't afford to raid HK - the economy here isn't doing well, and raiding HK would cause damage to both HK's and the mainland's markets that they clearly can't shoulder at the moment. It's very clear that they weren't expecting this, or the economic situation, to be where it is now and have been grappling with trying to figure out how to deal with it. We will see what happens next.
Beijing could raid HK at any time in the same way that we could all go jump off a bridge at any moment. It's physically possible but a terrible idea that once done, can't be undone.
A lot of damage has already been inflicted on Hong Kong and cannot easily be reversed. Capital is fleeing, businesses are moving out, tourists have stopped coming. Hong Kong has already jumped off the bridge.
Here are the 3 ways I think they can stop the protests
1. Complete surrender to the protestors. That would actually be the best outcome, but not for the communist party of China. It will be a massive loss of face for Xi Jinping, so I think it is extremly unlikely. It has to be a surrender, else the protests will not stop.
2. Invoke emergency powers, impose martial law and restrict internet. The few protestors who are left get arrested and extradited. It will not be that damaging to Chinas economy because it will bring back stability. The remaining protestors will not be able to organize, because their apps are banned and VPNs do not work properly. There is a risk of this happening if the protestors go too far. China wants to avoid doing this, because it will lead to a backlash from the western world.
3. Just wait it out. China do not need to do anything, most of the damage is inflicted on Hong Kong economy anyway. They are already planning to give Shenzhen some of the same financal freedoms as Hong Kong. Hong Kong economy will go into a massive recession, people will lose their jobs, and they will eventually demand that the protests stop. China can then use Hong Kong as an example of what not to do.
The current protests are starting to lose momentum, and lost their ability to cause massive damage like they did at the airport. I therefore think 3 is more likely than 2 at the moment.
Unless something very drastic happens, then Beijing is going to likely sit it out at this point. At least, they won't make any very drastic or shocking movements against HK.
The early escalations of police brutality and a bunch of "spontaneous attacks" by pro-Beijing, middle-aged men in white shirts who were photographed with pro-Beijing leaders after beating the crap out of protesters on the MTR were in large part what turned the protests into what they are now; I think that BJ tried to handle in a toned-down, but similar-at-the-core way that they would have handled it on the mainland: you make problems, you go down.
One of the problems that China is facing is that the party now increasingly exists in a bubble of its own making, where it is sealed off in large part from the true opinions of its people and it often believes its own hype in most sociopolitical matters. I think that the info that they got from their hand-selected HK leaders, eager to please Beijing, was that a) the extradition bill would go through juuuuuuust fine, and b) the dissent would be easily handled by a show of force. This was a massive miscalculation that only exacerbated and escalated things. The next move was to move military vehicles to Shenzhen (not far from where I live), in a clear show of force. Slick propaganda movies, ominous threats in party papers, etc, failed to instill the sense of fear that you get on the mainland - if anything, it egged on the protesters.
I think that after weeks of closed-door sessions, the powers-that-be decided to take a much more pragmatic approach than they may have wanted to or were previously accustomed to doing. HK's economy is less important to the Mainland than it was a decade or two ago, but by no means is the Mainland immune to its fluctuations, especially right now (like I said before... in different times, BJ may have opted to take a more ham-fisted approach, but they can't afford it now). The least painful course of action is to simply let them ride it out, to the chagrin of hardliners but the benefit of the economy.
So, the decision was to tone down the rhetoric, announce that they were taking a "hands-off" approach to HK while simultaneously making Shenzhen more "free" (which I'll believe when I see, but that's another conversation), and finally to withdraw the extradition bill. After this, we will see. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lam step down at some point, though I doubt she'd be replaced by anyone more palatable to the protesters. This is already a hard pill to swallow for BJ, so I wouldn't expect many more concessions.
The other issue is that even if BJ gave the protesters everything they wanted - free elections, amnesty for protesters, etc - I question how much benefit it would have for them for the core of their frustrations. Housing won't get cheaper or more plentiful. Unlikely that there will be a surge in jobs. The underlying problems that they are facing are very difficult if not impossible to solve, and Beijing's solutions ("find comfort in the glory of being Chinese! China #1!") are as meaningless as the lackluster lip service that the HK elite pay their concerns.
God speed to Hong Kong. Let they remember there is nothing so sweet as freedom and justice.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
