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True. But other cities under the purview of the PRC and outside of the two systems model are doing just fine, financially. Shanghai is a major economic powerhouse of its own, even bigger than Hong Kong. Beijing is only a little behind Hong Kong.
I'm not saying that only financial concerns matter to the Hong Kong protesters. And, to be sure, Macau seems to be enjoying more success and less distress under the two systems models in large part (from what I gather) because the city has a large amount of mainland residents living there now, and they brought their mainland way of thinking. That said, Macau has accepted PRC intrusions for a while now and without all of the push back that we see coming from Hong Kong.
Well, although Macau does have its own unique culture and history, it's such a small place that it's much tougher to resist outside influence. Same as, for example, a place like South Boston or Harlem in NYC which are historically Irish or black, respectively; even though they do have a unique history and culture, they aren't immune to outside influences and changing demographics. A sudden economic swing can knock half of that out in a generation, and totally erode it after a couple more. When I was a kid in Seattle, we lived in Ballard, which was a Scandinavian neighborhood; lots of Swedes and Norwegians, and businesses to cater to them. My grandparents could get all of their favorite meats, candies, etc when they visited. When I went back in '08, there was only one of the old shops left, and it closed down and turned into a designer cupcake shop a few months later. So it goes.
Also, Portugal had already long faded as an empire; Portugal had less of a reason or ability to be involved with the intricacies of Macanese society for some time leading up to the handover, and the people of Macau, who are by and large ethnically Chinese, had accepted this for some time. So, when the handover happened, there was perhaps more of a sense of inevitability and acceptance than there was for HK.
When the UK agreed to hand HK back to China, it was certainly well into decline from its glory days, but after the US and USSR still arguably number 3, and a very major geopolitical player and power broker. Up till the handover period, the UK was still a great power, if not a superpower, and the Commonwealth includes Canada and Australia, among other nations; contrast this with Portugal. The UK still played an extremely active role in the operations, administration, culture, and day-to-day life in HK, and so there was more of a "shock" when the handover happened and there have been more woes as China has attempted, through various means, to bring HK closer in line with the mainland.
For any rational and fair-minded person, removing politics from the equation, it's not hard to understand why the people of HK would be apprehensive about Mainland attempts to alter their culture and way of life, all the same that anyone else would. They have their own culture and society that's unique from that of the UK or the Mainland, and no one is particularly fond of giving up a way of life that's worked for them. If they want things to go smoothly, the CCP and pro-China hawks would do well to try to engage and acknowledge this reality rather than take the haughty, vengeful tone that they've instead taken, which is only going to lead to more conflict and strife.
For any rational and fair-minded person, removing politics from the equation, it's not hard to understand why the people of HK would be apprehensive about Mainland attempts to alter their culture and way of life, all the same that anyone else would.
In what way is China trying to alter their culture or way of life? Do you mean by allowing chinese to immigrate and visit Hong Kong?
From what I see, China was perfectly ok with the status quo before the protests. It was the Hong Kong people who wanted change.
You realize that Hong Kong is part of China and literally cannot survive without mainland China. Without China, every single industry in Hong Kong will collapse and they will not have enough water or electricity. Biting the hand that feeds you is stupid.
And if their lives are so miserable, then protest that. If 2 million Hong Kong people went out and demanded more public housing, then I am sure more will be built.
I've heard from many HK'ers that a big part of the reason that there is so much animosity, from their perception, is because of the arrogance of the mainland towards HK, which you see parroted here frequently enough.
"Hahaha, HK is nothing special."
"Shanghai, Beijing, and Shenzhen have already surpassed HK."
"We don't need HK anymore."
"HK is just another Chinese city, even Chongqing or Changsha is nicer."
"Stupid HK, just shut up and be thankful or the PLA will crush you, and China will laugh."
Is it any wonder there's so much resistance, honestly?
Mainlanders will tell you this is a reaction to perceived HK arrogance, which may be the case to some extent or another; however, HK isn't in any position to negatively impact society and the way of life in the mainland like the mainland can to HK. They feel that they are being welcomed back into China less as equals, and more as conquered, and unfortunately for China, the rest of the world is watching. Trying to regress freedoms on any populace is going to result in some pushback.
Of course, that's due almost entirely to fewer people going to casinos, and no one is making an argument that such would have changed had the handover not taken place. Macau certainly needs to diversify its economy, but it has largely enjoyed economic success since the handover. For context, even counting the recent downturns, Macau has had an average economic growth of almost 10% over the last 20 years: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicato...eal-gdp-growth
Ironically, the Hong Kong protests have played a significant role in Macau's financial troubles (Hong Kong airport being closed or having operations disrupted, etc.) in more recent times: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN1UY0U1
All in all, though, Macau remains stable politically, even after the handover and after Beijing has gotten more involved in its affairs over the years.
Well, although Macau does have its own unique culture and history, it's such a small place that it's much tougher to resist outside influence. Same as, for example, a place like South Boston or Harlem in NYC which are historically Irish or black, respectively; even though they do have a unique history and culture, they aren't immune to outside influences and changing demographics. A sudden economic swing can knock half of that out in a generation, and totally erode it after a couple more. When I was a kid in Seattle, we lived in Ballard, which was a Scandinavian neighborhood; lots of Swedes and Norwegians, and businesses to cater to them. My grandparents could get all of their favorite meats, candies, etc when they visited. When I went back in '08, there was only one of the old shops left, and it closed down and turned into a designer cupcake shop a few months later. So it goes.
Also, Portugal had already long faded as an empire; Portugal had less of a reason or ability to be involved with the intricacies of Macanese society for some time leading up to the handover, and the people of Macau, who are by and large ethnically Chinese, had accepted this for some time. So, when the handover happened, there was perhaps more of a sense of inevitability and acceptance than there was for HK.
When the UK agreed to hand HK back to China, it was certainly well into decline from its glory days, but after the US and USSR still arguably number 3, and a very major geopolitical player and power broker. Up till the handover period, the UK was still a great power, if not a superpower, and the Commonwealth includes Canada and Australia, among other nations; contrast this with Portugal. The UK still played an extremely active role in the operations, administration, culture, and day-to-day life in HK, and so there was more of a "shock" when the handover happened and there have been more woes as China has attempted, through various means, to bring HK closer in line with the mainland.
For any rational and fair-minded person, removing politics from the equation, it's not hard to understand why the people of HK would be apprehensive about Mainland attempts to alter their culture and way of life, all the same that anyone else would. They have their own culture and society that's unique from that of the UK or the Mainland, and no one is particularly fond of giving up a way of life that's worked for them. If they want things to go smoothly, the CCP and pro-China hawks would do well to try to engage and acknowledge this reality rather than take the haughty, vengeful tone that they've instead taken, which is only going to lead to more conflict and strife.
I agree. But, Hong Kongers need to realize that they are citizens of the PRC and that the PRC has sovereignty over Hong Kong. While I can understand some Hong Kongers' apprehension of more involvement by the PRC, they really have only three ways forward as best I can tell: they can either (1) move from Hong Kong, (2) get a majority of the PRC population on their side and overthrow the PRC government (fat chance with that as most of the PRC population is perfectly happy with their government, which has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty over the years), or (3) accept the reality to come absent number 2.
These protests are likely only going to speed up the PRC's plans to incorporate Hong Kong under the central government. As is foreign meddling in what is an internal Chinese matter.
In what way is China trying to alter their culture or way of life? Do you mean by allowing chinese to immigrate and visit Hong Kong?
From what I see, China was perfectly ok with the status quo before the protests. It was the Hong Kong people who wanted change.
Less that, more restrictions on free speech, arrests of booksellers, attempts to enact laws that allow for people to be criminally punished for disrespecting the Chinese anthem or government figures, extradition to the mainland for things considered a crime there but not in HK, etc. I suppose maybe you don't have a problem with any of these things, but again, anyone should understand why HK'ers would be apprehensive about it.
I agree. But, Hong Kongers need to realize that they are citizens of the PRC and that the PRC has sovereignty over Hong Kong. While I can understand some Hong Kongers' apprehension of more involvement by the PRC, they really have only three ways forward as best I can tell: they can either (1) move from Hong Kong, (2) get a majority of the PRC population on their side and overthrow the PRC government (fat chance with that as most of the PRC population is perfectly happy with their government, which has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty over the years), or (3) accept the reality to come absent number 2.
These protests are likely only going to speed up the PRC's plans to incorporate Hong Kong under the central government. As is foreign meddling in what is an internal Chinese matter.
I expect that there will probably be a sizeable exodus from HK in the coming years if the economy goes down with its special status and also, possibly, the mainland's status as the nexus of globalisation as the world reanalyses and walks back from the last quarter century. It's too bad; I love HK, I've always enjoyed it there, though there is a palpable decline in the feeling of its pulse and vibrancy in recent years.
As far as the city itself goes, I suspect it will still maintain a large degree of its wealth and status even through the hardships over the next few years and will continue to be an attractive place for international commerce, even with what's going on. The CCP will continue to gradually exert pressure over the next 25 years, though this will likely fluctuate according to whether the administration that succeeds the current one is less or more authoritarian or ideological. It's unlikely that they will walk back from anything that happens these years, but the speed with which it happens will vary.
I've heard from many HK'ers that a big part of the reason that there is so much animosity, from their perception, is because of the arrogance of the mainland towards HK, which you see parroted here frequently enough.
"Hahaha, HK is nothing special."
"Shanghai, Beijing, and Shenzhen have already surpassed HK."
"We don't need HK anymore."
"HK is just another Chinese city, even Chongqing or Changsha is nicer."
"Stupid HK, just shut up and be thankful or the PLA will crush you, and China will laugh."
Is it any wonder there's so much resistance, honestly?
Mainlanders will tell you this is a reaction to perceived HK arrogance, which may be the case to some extent or another; however, HK isn't in any position to negatively impact society and the way of life in the mainland like the mainland can to HK. They feel that they are being welcomed back into China less as equals, and more as conquered, and unfortunately for China, the rest of the world is watching. Trying to regress freedoms on any populace is going to result in some pushback.
Take a look at any place dominated by Hong Kong people such as LIHKG, or reddit Hong Kong and you will only see pro-Hong Kong post and negative comments about mainlanders.
The average Hong Kong person are not reading the comments above on a daily basis. In fact if they read them at all, it is probably some Hong Kong person who has been searching Chinese social media and reposted it on Hong Kong social media. Also, Hong Kong is not a big conversational subject in China, people mostly talk about other things.
Hong Kong has always been distrustful against China and mainlanders, but I think social media made it much worse. Because of social media whenever you open up the app you will get bombarded with negative news about China and bad behaviour from mainlanders. Any positive news get downvoted and is not visible. When you end up in such a filter bubble, then that will influence their thinking.
Also, Hong Kong people do not consider themselves equals to mainlanders, they feel superiour. What they want is not for Chinese to treat them as equal, but to be left alone and get full autonomy. Hong Kongs biggest fear has always been to become just an another chinese city. And China mostly left them alone till the anti-Chinese culture got so strong that it become a national security risk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k
As far as the city itself goes, I suspect it will still maintain a large degree of its wealth and status even through the hardships over the next few years and will continue to be an attractive place for international commerce, even with what's going on.
Without the gateway to China there is nothing Hong Kong can offer that you cannot find anywhere else. And what Chinese company is going to pick Hong Kong now?
Hong Kong has already collapsed, and the wealth and status is not coming back.
Less that, more restrictions on free speech, arrests of booksellers, attempts to enact laws that allow for people to be criminally punished for disrespecting the Chinese anthem or government figures, extradition to the mainland for things considered a crime there but not in HK, etc. I suppose maybe you don't have a problem with any of these things, but again, anyone should understand why HK'ers would be apprehensive about it.
Of course I have a problem with this, but its not China trying to alter the culture of Hong Kong. The main goal of these actions is to prevent Hong Kong from becoming a rebel city that is used by anti-Chinese to undermine China. After the protest started, that is exactly what Hong Kong has become and that is why China is taking away Hong Kongs freedoms and crushing dissent. China do not believe that if they give the protestors what they want, that they will stop being an anti-China city.
Also Hong Kong in 2018 did not have speech laws, there was no attempt to criminally punish for disrespecting the Chinese anthem. And even the Hong Kong protestors admit that the extradition treaty was only the trigger, not the main cause. So there must be something else that made Hong Kong people so worried about Chinas influence in Hong Kong.
It is quite clear to me that when they talk about losing their culture, then they talk about immigration and tourism. They are afraid of losing their city to mainlanders who then choose to become a pro-China city.
Last edited by Camlon; 05-27-2020 at 03:03 AM..
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