Will Kamala Harris SE Asia trip this time round affect China - Singapore relations?? (cost, safe)
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China is not a part of the western world, and not a puppet (Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are obviously western puppets/followers).
Taiwan wasn't a follower of the western world under Ma Ying-jeou.
Singapore is similar to KMT of Taiwan. Both are capitalist chinese majority places from the beginning. Both are less hostile than south korea which is less hostile than japan. They are both not aligned with Mainland China but obviously have better relations with it by not following the more anti mainland China policies of the US , Japan and other western countries.
Singapore's been more of a blended system than anything and is not quite an authoritarian dictatorship though it does lean that way compared to most of Western Europe. There is a pretty strong record of good governance and meritocracy within the Singaporean government though it does sometimes seem like it's a pretty small milieu of people that are part of that ladder. Posters like singaporelady are probably pretty far removed from the process of governance, but they aren't completely so.
I didn't say Singapore was an authoritarian dictatorship. I said they loved authoritarian dictatorships. The fact that they've only had 3 PMs, all from the same party, in more than 50 years and that 2 of them are father and son certainly doesn't help their case against my notion.
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There's a pretty large variety of government and political power that is not Chinese Communist Party authoritarianism, Nazi Germany authoritarianism and the social democratic Nordic model which also varies somewhat among the various Nordic nations themselves. In the several decades of Singapore's existence, the government and political process as well as social norms have become gradually though unevenly a bit more open and I think roping it into the same strata as China's much less democratic and transparent policies is counterproductive if the idea is that democracy and transparency are desired ideals. Singapore for the region of Southeast Asia is sort of middle of the pack and it's done so while being much more economically successful in comparison to the others.
Again, I never said Singapore's polity was CCP authoritarianism or Nazi German authoritarianism. I said they loved it.
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I guess that economic success is part of why it's such a lighting rod for criticism despite some of the countries in the region being far more egregious when it comes to authoritarian tendencies and human rights violations.
It would be a lighting rod for criticism in any region in the world for being the only developed country that is not a democracy. 99% of the time the richer the country, the more democratic and liberal the society would be, but Singaporeans attribute their economic success to their style of governance which is laughable. When you only have a city to govern, it would always be successful. Not to mention the geographic advantages of Singapore. They have no typhoon, no earthquake, no nothing.
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Originally Posted by Bettafish
China is not a part of the western world, and not a puppet (Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are obviously western puppets/followers).
There wouldn't be any need to be a puppet if China wasn't such a piece of ****.
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Maybe it's better to look further.
(I didn't find 2021 data for developing countries. Feel free to post if you find it.)
There's no survey for developing countries.
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Originally Posted by Tomboy-
Taiwan wasn't a follower of the western world under Ma Ying-jeou.
Probably because he is the no.1 China **********. If he wasn't worried that America would take him out (wish they had tbh) he would have declared unification with China.
China doesn't really need to care too much about what westerners think.
They are just two different worlds with different interests.
Ikr who gives a **** about 2/3 of the world's economy when we have bffs like Putin, Kim Jong-un, the Taliban, and all the African countries with bright, bright futures.
Ikr who gives a **** about 2/3 of the world's economy when we have bffs like Putin, Kim Jong-un, the Taliban, and all the African countries with bright, bright futures.
This attitude is one of reasons China continues rise despite western pressure. Those African countries have rapidly growing economies, growing populations, and are in great need of infrastructure and goods. All this means plenty opportunity.
Most countries SE Asia will play the middle. Some might have a slight lean based upon historical factors, but will not choose a side. To quote 48 laws of power, "do not commit to a side or cause but yourself."
This attitude is one of reasons China continues rise despite western pressure. Those African countries have rapidly growing economies, growing populations, and are in great need of infrastructure and goods. All this means plenty opportunity.
Most countries SE Asia will play the middle. Some might have a slight lean based upon historical factors, but will not choose a side. To quote 48 laws of power, "do not commit to a side or cause but yourself."
Asia, North America and Asia share of the world's GDP is 92%, and China has poor relations with the majority of the countries in those regions. China is also in conflict with almost all of its neighbors, including India who is just as large as China. It is kind of funny how you talk about China will rise due to opportunities in Africa, while at the same time ignoring that China destroyed its trade relationship with India over a few hundred meters of land.
The idea that you can replace trade with 92% of the worlds GDP with Africa who has 2.8% of worlds GDP is just stupid. This is not what China believed a few years ago, and the reason some Chinese have started to believe it now, is because they don't want to admit that China's diplomacy has failed.
In addition, the few allies China have are either authoritarian states like Iran or nations that want Chinese money. If China gets a domestic crisis and can no longer afford to give out cheap loans, then China could easily lose Africa.
This attitude is one of reasons China continues rise despite western pressure. Those African countries have rapidly growing economies, growing populations, and are in great need of infrastructure and goods. All this means plenty opportunity.
It probably sounds good in theory to invest in African countries, but the reality is that the continent is hopeless. They will always be poor.
Asia, North America and Asia share of the world's GDP is 92%, and China has poor relations with the majority of the countries in those regions. China is also in conflict with almost all of its neighbors, including India who is just as large as China. It is kind of funny how you talk about China will rise due to opportunities in Africa, while at the same time ignoring that China destroyed its trade relationship with India over a few hundred meters of land.
The idea that you can replace trade with 92% of the worlds GDP with Africa who has 2.8% of worlds GDP is just stupid. This is not what China believed a few years ago, and the reason some Chinese have started to believe it now, is because they don't want to admit that China's diplomacy has failed.
In addition, the few allies China have are either authoritarian states like Iran or nations that want Chinese money. If China gets a domestic crisis and can no longer afford to give out cheap loans, then China could easily lose Africa.
China has poor relations says who, those public opinion polls. Keep in mind the polls are conducted by Western media sources and are geared towards the general public, not the actual decision makers. Doesn't matter if the people have a poor opinion. What matters is what businesses do, and last I checked they are lining up to do business in China. Every week Hollywood is trying to get their movies released in the country. H&M backed away from their public criticism after the Chinese boycott. These are just two examples of many. Look not to what people say, but their actions. China doesn't have to worry about replacing 92% of the worlds GDP because 92% of the world is not going to stop training with them. To think otherwise is simply delusional.
Can't comment on India, while they are just as large in population, that's about it. I will say, if India does commit to one side, they are going to be behind for a longtime. China played both sides. They received military and scientific assistance from the Soviet Union, and received economic help from the West and Japan. Judging by the conversation we are having, that worked out great for them. Before someone says it, I'm not a Chinse BOT, I'm simply pointing out flaws in the arguments we often make in the West that prevents us from seeing the bigger picture. Also we need to be realistic and drop the false world savior complex. Countries act in their own interest. Not for freedom, not for morality, not for friendship. Once again it is best to not commit to to a side.
Regarding Africa, keep believing "Africa will forever be poor" nonsense. I was recently on the continent and was amazed by the level of the development. I'm looking into investments clubs. Granted there is still a ways to go, but things are improving. It's a continent not a country so certain countries are further ahead than others. Look at news outside of western sources. You will see that Africa isn't just disease, poverty, and war. The U.S. and European countries are now trying to counter China with their own economic programs for the continent. The GDP may be 3% today, but with a rate of 6% growth, its going to take up much more of the pie in the future.
Regarding Africa, keep believing "Africa will forever be poor" nonsense. I was recently on the continent and was amazed by the level of the development. I'm looking into investments clubs. Granted there is still a ways to go, but things are improving. It's a continent not a country so certain countries are further ahead than others. Look at news outside of western sources. You will see that Africa isn't just disease, poverty, and war. The U.S. and European countries are now trying to counter China with their own economic programs for the continent. The GDP may be 3% today, but with a rate of 6% growth, its going to take up much more of the pie in the future.
Idk where your 6% comes from. African countries do not have a stable 6% growth.
In recent years the growth is barely higher than developed countries, and the 2021 growth is very weak despite contraction in 2020.
Even if a miracle of asteroid proportions strikes, at best Africa may be able to reach the level of development of Latin America, which is still largely irrelevant to the world economy. It is extremely unlikely that any African country would be able to replicate an economic miracle.
Last edited by Greysholic; 08-26-2021 at 10:10 AM..
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