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I believe the main purpose of religion is to help humans bridge the gap between the world we know and can understand and the wider universe at large. It seeks to answer the "big" questions. I believe the bottom line, not meant in a condescending way, is that people are scared to give up their deities. To think of a world without an all-knowing, powerful creator is depressing, immobilizing, and terrifying to many people.
I understand the point that you are making, but I don't think people are going to walk away from their security. I don't so much have a problem with religion; it's (mostly) man's interpretation and execution (no pun intended) of religion. Whether I believe that purple dinosaur rules all the universe or the Judeo-Christian God is of no consequence to anyone, but throughout the ages and even today, people make it an issue. It's very frustrating.
I've been hearing and reading a lot about Thomas Jefferson lately. He's my new hero.
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
I believe it's all about power. The clergy wants to "lead the flock" and control as many people as they can. They love that big fund they ride on. Look at how some of them dress and what they drive. I know, I know, someone's gonnna point out all the poor preachers and poor congregations. It's still about power.
The reason humans started wordshiping the sun and the stars, thunder, the wind, etc. in the first place is bacause they didn't understand exactly what these things are. Very primitive way of dealing with reality. I still can't believe that people on this very day do indeed believe that some supreme being waved his wand and created the universe. Probably cause they're too afraid to admit they doubt it, that would put them at odds with everyone else that shares their delusion.
The pretty open call for intolerance, and widespread agreement to such, is rather disturbing but also explains some problems I think you all have.
I like some atheists, plus some of my favorite authors are atheists and few of them are religious. That said if atheism and irreligion are going to be associated to ahistorical lying and a desire to destroy other ways of thought than it should be distrusted. In fact it would be almost a civic duty to distrust it.
You really can't prove that hundreds of millions of people have been killed in "the name of their gods." Unless you stretch the meaning of religious war or religion-related killing beyond all sanity or choose to believe the most fringe of fringe historians. Even if you could prove such a thing it's a selective view of history that ignores the role religions played in hospitals, medical advances, and life-saving operations.
If you place yourselves as an intolerant and dishonest force the more sensible question becomes "how long should religious people put up with you?"
(This is not referring to the many decent sensible atheists, who granted mostly wouldn't post here but sometimes do)
For thousands of years we have watched and stood by as religion killed hundreds of millions in the name of their gods. I wonder what it will take for humanity to open their eyes and look at the history our religions have given us. Not a picture of love and peace, more like blood, greed, power, politics, and death. What will it take to jolt the sheep back into reality and end the madness? If there was even a glimmer of a chance it was something other than myths, and fairy tales I might understand it, but with just the limited knowledge we have today it clearly shows the religions of the past to be nothing but lies, and political power plays. I think humanity needs to get a back bone and throw the whole lot out on the street. End the killings, end the lies, expose the power hungrey for what they are, and close them down before they kill us all.
I agree, but it's going to take a hell of a lot of work. People are too afraid to challenge their beliefs. They're drunk off the idea of heaven and salvation and don't want to go at this world alone without a supreme being watching over them. This world is scary. But for some it's a bit less scary if you can pray or think that you'll see your loved ones again when they pass away.
Religion is also an easy way to explain this seemingly incomprehensible universe we live in. With God, you don't have to ask the difficult questions of, "Where did we come from and where are we going?"
I would love to see humanity completely abandon religion. To let go of these myths that have been passed on from generation to generation. I won't ever see it in my lifetime, but I have seen a dramatic increase in atheism. It seems every new generation is becoming smarter and more skeptical, and I think that's a trend that will continue.
Jefferson is a bane and scourge to the Christian mindset, since they would dearly love to...
1) claim we were founded to be a nation strictly governed by Christian laws, which we are also supposed to bow down to (mandated morning prayers in schools for instance) and
2) place a social and cultural stranglehold on American society. By force of legal measure.
For his obviously keen mind, enduring oversight, understanding of human & religious foibles, his obvious eloquence and elegant writing, I also love his work.
I'd direct people's attention to the current (August 9th, 2010) issue of Time Magazine, particularly the devastating cover picture and related story of Afghani women and what they have and will endure at the hands of religion run amok.
Which, BTW, it ALWAYS does, since by design it grants unlimited power to the select few who appoint themselves as arbiters of the truth. While Islam or Christianity may appeal on paper, it's the same as that tired old saw about Communism being good "in theory". Nope. That always dismisses the human behavior and greed/arrogance factors, which are not dismissible. Ever.
Well Dang!!!! There you go making sense again! Tried to rep ya, but...."gotta spread...."
peppermint: Very seldom does the diplomatic approach open the minds of theists. (But, then neither does an aggressive 'rude' approach. It's just more fun.) Sometimes I feel that on this board, theists and nontheists only talk past one another. However, I respect your low-key approach. I try not to be 'antagonistic', but I am sometimes rather blunt, usually after yet another smug, heaping load of rubbish has been pointed my way. I tire of those who are certain that they know the unknowable, piling dogma on top of it.
I went to Thomas Jefferson High School! Not that it was substantially different from any other Dallas public high school.
The only way the Earth will be rid of religion is if every person in the world decides to be rid of religion. How many of us atheists came to drop religion and lose our beliefs because another atheist talked us out of it? I know it didn't happen that way for me. I had to decide that it was okay to question my beliefs. I had to realize that something claiming to be truth would stand up to scrutiny, and that it was reasonable to ask questions (and that's no easy task when your religion tells you it's wrong to question it). Of course, when I started seeking answers on my own, my former belief system crumbled rather quickly. But no one forced me to do so, and no one even suggested it. I just chose to, and I'm betting most de-conversion stories would involve similar decisions, largely separate from the influence of others.
The pretty open call for intolerance, and widespread agreement to such, is rather disturbing but also explains some problems I think you all have.
I like some atheists, plus some of my favorite authors are atheists and few of them are religious. That said if atheism and irreligion are going to be associated to ahistorical lying and a desire to destroy other ways of thought than it should be distrusted. In fact it would be almost a civic duty to distrust it.
You really can't prove that hundreds of millions of people have been killed in "the name of their gods." Unless you stretch the meaning of religious war or religion-related killing beyond all sanity or choose to believe the most fringe of fringe historians. Even if you could prove such a thing it's a selective view of history that ignores the role religions played in hospitals, medical advances, and life-saving operations.
If you place yourselves as an intolerant and dishonest force the more sensible question becomes "how long should religious people put up with you?"
(This is not referring to the many decent sensible atheists, who granted mostly wouldn't post here but sometimes do)
I think that the problem that you have is in ignoring the essential truth of what we say and taking refuge in quibbling.
Even if hundreds of millions have not died as a result of Christianity and - bearing in mind the Conquistadores, the anti -muslim wars from Justinian onto Afghanistan (you thinks that's not about religion?) not to mention the H word - there are the other religion wars and centuries of human sacrifice. Oh yes, mate, I think hundreds of millions may be a conservative figure.
And it's all based on a human delusion that there are gods and whatever ideas we get in our heads are approved by those gods. How long are we going to put up with such delusions in the modern age?
You may try to hive off 'decent sensible' atheists from the intolerant and 'dishonest' (through a bit of rhetorical quibbling on your part, really) atheists, but the fact is that we are all the same - we do not buy into the Big Lie...there, I've said it.. of religious delusion and the only distinction is in how we say so.
Similarly I may distinguish betwen reasonable and polite theists (like yourself) and the unreasonable and sneering ones we sometimes get here, but the fact remains that you are all the same, refusing to see that there is no better basis for Christianity than for any other religions - in which you do not believe, let me remind you - and you all buy into what is, essentially blind faith.
That is excusable when you don't know the facts but the facts have been put before you, mate, and you have, now, the choice of rejecting fact in favour of faith or recognising that the religious claims do not stack up.
The question is, me old mate, not how long will we put up with religion, but how long you will.
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