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The good thing is that you seem to honestly understand your feelings and the reasons for them. Maybe that understanding will help you, and your harsh feelings toward the Christian church will subside over time.
I know that I have hard feelings toward certain people from time to time, and when I let go of those feelings I felt much better.
Even though I am an Atheist, I was taught, and I wholeheartedly believe, that organized religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. However, when it goes too far and hurts people like you, that is not good.
Are you saying that you believe all Christians vote the same way?
That all Christians or religious people believe the same things?
On the one hand, I find it hard to believe that you can think that. On the other hand, it sure sounds like that's what you believe.
No, just enough to effect the outcome.
How many voted for a candidate solely based on their religion? Based on the exit surveys taken at polls and other surveys the numbers are sufficient to change the outcome.
It is a sad sad day when a man's worth is measured by the version of ancient ignorance he follows. Welcome to amerkia
How many voted for a candidate solely based on their religion? Based on the exit surveys taken at polls and other surveys the numbers are sufficient to change the outcome.
It is a sad sad day when a man's worth is measured by the version of ancient ignorance he follows. Welcome to amerkia
I can agree with you that sometimes (probably too often) people base their votes on ridiculous reasons. I am sure that some religious folks do it way to much. I don't know what the exit surveys say, to be honest. But I am sure that people (religious and non-religious) base their votes on other (foolish?) reasons as well.
To Catman: I do play guitar, and generally don't use capos, although sometimes they are useful. I find them limiting, so i try to work around them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45
NoCapo, that was great post.
The good thing is that you seem to honestly understand your feelings and the reasons for them. Maybe that understanding will help you, and your harsh feelings toward the Christian church will subside over time.
I know that I have hard feelings toward certain people from time to time, and when I let go of those feelings I felt much better.
Even though I am an Atheist, I was taught, and I wholeheartedly believe, that organized religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. However, when it goes too far and hurts people like you, that is not good.
Don't mistake me, I am able to function well with believers, and don't push my views on them. I was one of them not too long ago, and I understand where they are coming from. I do not have much tolerance for bigotry hiding behind religion, or patronizing attitudes toward non-believers. I honestly just can't stomach the anti-everything-but-exactly-what-I-believe attitudes that often manifest, so I tend to try to avoid those kind of people. Unfortunately they are my family, so that doesn't work to well. I just try to smile and nod and avoid causing conflict.
I somewhat agree with you on the last point. I think the good that religion does is essentially a placebo. When an alcoholic is able to deal with his addiction through religion, that is great. Religion didn't do it, the individual did, but if that is what they need, so be it. The converse to that is that I feel like the majority of Christians who are not messed up by religion manage to avoid that fate because the don't take it very seriously. When you really absorb things like original sin, the inward leading of the Holy Spirit, the moral rightness of any action commanded by God or the pressure to live a "holy" life, you can wind up in some bad places. It appears to me that most of the good comes from people integrating bits a pieces into their life and discarding what doesn't work for them, a practice that is often roundly condemned from the pulpit.
I can agree with you that sometimes (probably too often) people base their votes on ridiculous reasons. I am sure that some religious folks do it way to much. I don't know what the exit surveys say, to be honest. But I am sure that people (religious and non-religious) base their votes on other (foolish?) reasons as well.
Are we starting to get off topic?
Probably wandering off topic, so lets go the edge then see if we can find our way back. Mindless voters are a huge problem, in general elections, the mindless "straight part ticket" without any regard to the buffoons that they are voting for. I hate to think how many people pull the straight party lever for no other reason than "daddy always voted that way"
In a primary, the mindless can't use the simply formula of party, so they go to yet another mindless decision point, their religion.
I only once a year everyone would be an atheist, election day would be the day to do it. I have always felt very strongly that the "straight party" choice should be eliminated from ballots. If you don't know enough the candidate you are voting for, then you shouldn't.
I do not subscribe to any organized religion. Although I am friends with many ministers, and one said that "church hurt" - the wounds one suffers while attending to/subscribing to the beliefs of one church or the other - makes for quite a few atheists.
I am with NoCapo; as long as people feel the need to believe in something, and it helps them overcome difficulties in their lives, I am happy for them. Those who use their church beliefs to promote themselves by crushing or injuring others are people for whom I have no use.
I think it is more valid to discuss morals. Atheists can have strong morals - or they can, like 'devouts', use their beliefs to excuse, even promote, their lack of morals. Child abusers often use religion as a 'cover', as do rapists, thieves, and liars. Having a religious belief - or not having one - should not be an excuse to perpetrate one's base desires onto others. Atheists aren't "going to hell" for their beliefs any more than child abusing Christians, rapist Jews, or thieving Muslims are going to be saved from Hell.
I do like to occasionally 'pink' with a sword of morality those self-promoting Christians who arrogantly think that they are 'saved' no matter whom they hurt or what they do to others. And having been a bible scholar as well as a Sunday School teacher, I can do it with the very verses from the book to which they say they adhere!
But honestly, people like that are really pretty boring and, after awhile, not worth my time. I of course have a life... and it has nothing to do with getting gussied up on Sunday or running off to Bible Study on Wednesday, just to impress people with how righteous I am. If they can't figure out how righteous I am by my daily actions, then they are either too busy to notice or are measuring me by the wrong yardstick. Either way, they don't matter... as much as they desperately need to feel that they do.
I do not subscribe to any organized religion. Although I am friends with many ministers, and one said that "church hurt" - the wounds one suffers while attending to/subscribing to the beliefs of one church or the other - makes for quite a few atheists.
I am with NoCapo; as long as people feel the need to believe in something, and it helps them overcome difficulties in their lives, I am happy for them. Those who use their church beliefs to promote themselves by crushing or injuring others are people for whom I have no use.
I think it is more valid to discuss morals. Atheists can have strong morals - or they can, like 'devouts', use their beliefs to excuse, even promote, their lack of morals. Child abusers often use religion as a 'cover', as do rapists, thieves, and liars. Having a religious belief - or not having one - should not be an excuse to perpetrate one's base desires onto others. Atheists aren't "going to hell" for their beliefs any more than child abusing Christians, rapist Jews, or thieving Muslims are going to be saved from Hell.
I do like to occasionally 'pink' with a sword of morality those self-promoting Christians who arrogantly think that they are 'saved' no matter whom they hurt or what they do to others. And having been a bible scholar as well as a Sunday School teacher, I can do it with the very verses from the book to which they say they adhere!
But honestly, people like that are really pretty boring and, after awhile, not worth my time. I of course have a life... and it has nothing to do with getting gussied up on Sunday or running off to Bible Study on Wednesday, just to impress people with how righteous I am. If they can't figure out how righteous I am by my daily actions, then they are either too busy to notice or are measuring me by the wrong yardstick. Either way, they don't matter... as much as they desperately need to feel that they do.
Sorry you were treated that way - it is very irritating.
Not all theists are like that, though. That's why I love being Jewish. We're not into proselytizing, and we don't purport to proclaim who's going where after we die. I know what you mean, though - people will often suggest that we're not going to be part of eternal life after if we don't believe a certain thing. First of all, I don't believe that, so it's a moot point, and second of all, even if I wanted to, how could I control what I truly believe in my heart?
... is now "not a member" in less than 12 hours of starting out their post with one of their lies of "I'm not troll", while posing a number of questions such as the inane "why don't you want to go to heaven".
Their quick disappearance suggests that this is perhaps yet another cowardly theists that can't follow the rules and created a second (or more .....) account, for the sole purpose of trolling.
They set such a wonderful example of christian behavior, but kudos to the mods for quick action.
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Yet another christian troll
