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I just read this article that summarizes the thoughts of a UK thinker and Atheist named Alain de Botton. I was hoping you guys could read the article and tell me your thoughts on it
I feel self-assured in my atheism. Like de Botton, I've never had a religion, but I've been to a number of religious events for friends and family, like Bar Mitzvahs, baptisms, and funerals. My impression has been that while the supernatural foundations of all this is false and destructive, these ancient traditions are part of our cultural patrimony and I can understand why they developed. I think the idea of going to a space that is architecturally inspiring outside of the normal capitalist paradigm, where all are welcome, to hear an intelligent speaker give talks on the logic behind ethical behaviour and social responsibility, with members of my family, my community, people from all walks of life coming there at the same time, it sounds wonderful! This is what draws people to religion, and perhaps we ARE impoverished by the lack of it. We're at the dawn of a new age, with people just waking up from religion, so we're still in infancy and haven't created anything to take its social place. We've just let the secular capitalist "rest-of-life" take on a bigger role, but maybe that's not the best way to live? It was never designed to meet all human needs and I don't think it should. Maybe we could create something better than the superstitious past or the easily isolating, materialistic present of secular societies? It certainly takes imagination, much of this sounds quite foreign and it's dififcult to imagine something so theoretical, but putting aside practical notions of whether it's practicable, what are your thoughts on the principle?
Sounds like the OP would love the Ethical Culture Society. I do think religious gatherings have served as a community/social center, especially in past times or more isolated towns/societies. I saw hamlets in mountain Nepal where the only building not a tiny hut for living was a monastery, and people seemed to hang around there like you would a local pub. The chanting and bowing might be up front, but other people hung around the back, chatting and drinking rice booze (vicious stuff at 12,000 feet).
I imagine back a long time ago, churches were the only public building among tiny houses for habitation, maybe some outbuildings for animals or agriculture. The lords lived far away in the few estate houses.
I think American life in general is lacking in meaningful ritual. I don't know if people find their religious rituals so meaningful, or if it is just rote, but it is ritual. I personally wouldn't find religious ritual meaningful, since I don't believe in any of the basic beliefs underneath it- a cracker is just a cracker, dunking in the water is getting wet, I don't believe in salvation or any of that stuff. I do wonder how many U.S. Jews believe in god or any such but do want to do the rituals and singing and all that goes back so many years and that so many people suffered for.
I have always wondered how many times the community can do the rain dance, not get rain, and still believe they should do it. I recognize it as a community ritual, a bonding, but it seems a quick trip to "the rain dance didn't work because ____ (so and so is a witch, somebody didn't believe, somebody did the wrong thing...")
I think American life in general is lacking in meaningful ritual.
I totally agree, and we like it that way.
When I see cultures with rituals, I see people behaving like they are being told to behave instead of individual people doing exactlly what they want to do. The people partaking in these rituals often look bored.
When I see cultures with rituals, I see people behaving like they are being told to behave instead of individual people doing exactlly what they want to do. The people partaking in these rituals often look bored.
If you're bored, the ritual is meaningless, but everyone practices ritual in their everyday lives whether they like it or not. There's something important and beautiful about the ritual of a marriage in front of your community, as opposed to just signing a legal document with your partner. There's beauty in the ritual and tradition of the graduation ceremony as opposed to just handing out diplomas in the mail. And there's something deeply important, and necessary to the grieving process, in having rituals around death, around honouring the deceased and, most importantly, honouring human lives through recognizing the beauty of a single one. It brings people together to face a challenge in a way that is very healthy, and reasserts the sanctity of life, makes us think about what has meaning, gives us perspective. All of these are traditions we could do without as atheists, but that we are enriched through participating in. I just wonder in what other aspects of life we're missing things like these. Maybe, without falling back on church traditions, there could develop more deeply rooted traditions of secular funerals and weddings, as people do interesting things that stick. And perhaps there are other traditions that could happen, like community centres might someday develop with weekly lectures from arts professors, like you see at TED or here on public radio. Just, ideas like these, that's how cultural heritage happens, as time passes and the most successful ideas carry on.
Bimbam, you and I are just different. When I got my college degrees, I just went to the administration office and picked them up. My wife and I got married in her parents back yard 41 years ago. Ceremonies don't mean much to me.
In the great movie "Zorba the Greek", Alan Bates asked Zorba (Anthony Quinn), "What work do you do?" Zorba answered, "My hands and feet, they do the work, but in important things, like singing and dancing, I am my own man. I mean - Free".
I just read this article that summarizes the thoughts of a UK thinker and Atheist named Alain de Botton. I was hoping you guys could read the article and tell me your thoughts on it
I basically agree with this. This is where I am with my own atheism. Religion has had thousands of years of history behind it and has yielded many positive things that enrich society - like art, architecture, music, ethics and community.
These are not things I feel any need to abandon as an atheist. Just abandon all supernatural beliefs, just like Christians abandoned the ancient Greco-Roman religious beliefs.
Bimbam, you and I are just different. When I got my college degrees, I just went to the administration office and picked them up. My wife and I got married in her parents back yard 41 years ago. Ceremonies don't mean much to me.
In the great movie "Zorba the Greek", Alan Bates asked Zorba (Anthony Quinn), "What work do you do?" Zorba answered, "My hands and feet, they do the work, but in important things, like singing and dancing, I am my own man. I mean - Free".
To each his own then, I think it's fine if that's what you prefer. Different strokes, at least we've got common ground in the more fundamental stuff.
Another flavor of the "religion leads to good things" argument. The problem is that all of those things can be had WITHOUT religion.
I don't think that religious societies of the past had less problems of ethics and guidance than secular societies. Actually, corruption is quite rampant in the few theocracies we have, go figure.
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