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I'm not questioning your beliefs, I don't think a person needs faith to be righteous. I am, for the most part, more orthodox in my faith versus the average American. I cannot concieve of a life without faith; while I am not Christian, Catholic, or Protestant, I do agree and follow much of what the GOD of Abraham says in the books of the Bible. However, GOD would not condemn someone who follows a faith outside the Abrahamic faiths or is ambivalent on faith.
With that said, I don't understand why the atheist community and similiar communities try to portray themselves as tolerant when in my experience they come across as being somewhat far from it. I identify as LGBT and some of the worst discrimination and treatment have come from people who were either atheist, deist, or some combination of those two or more. I have encountered discrimination from Christians and the Protestant/Catholic community, but they were usually pretty tame on their actual actions. I don't expect most people to accept LGBT people; I learned to live with that over a decade ago. But what makes me a bit mad is how a lot of atheists and similar groups of people (deists, agnostics, humanists, etc) say that they are tolerant and freeminded and intellectual, etc when I think that they aren't that much different from the so-called 'Religious Right'.
What do you think?
As others have pointed out, you are confusing groups who subscribe to a doctrine versus behavior you've seen from individuals. There is no atheist "doctrine" that says one must be pro-LGBT or vice versa. Yet I would imagine that since most anti-LGBT folks are that way due to their religious beliefs, you certainly will find a higher rate of acceptance among atheists and that polling would almost certainly indicate this.
Your second point about non-believers being not that much different from the 'Religious Right' couldn't be more off base. This is a common misunderstanding among those who don't understand non-belief. While inidividual atheists may share similar characteristics, they are not united on most subjects because of their atheism. I will 100% guarantee you right now that any person who treated you poorly because of your sexuality did so NOT because of their non-belief in God. In fact I bet you'd even agree that such a line of thinking would be absurd. That is like saying "My atheism says homosexuality is wrong and therefore I think you are terrible for being a homosexual." Obviously, atheism says nothing on homosexuality since it has no doctrine and the only thing atheists all have in common is the lack of belief in God.
Contrast that to right wing Christians who discriminate against you because they are Christian. I am sure you have heard at several points throughout your life how God disapproves of you and that Christians believe homosexuality is wrong, vile, or worse. As others have stated, atheists can be jerks and Christians can be jerks. But an athiest would not treat you poorly because they are an atheist, they would treat you poorly because they just aren't a good person.
Now this is why so many non-believers think poorly of religion and probably think of themselves as "more tolerant." Many religions already start from the premise that you are flawed because of your LGBT orientation. Good people who subscribe to these religions (or take them fundamentally) can discriminate or treat you different because of their religions, and then when bad people who subscribe to those beliefs...well that's how groups like the Westboro Baptist Church come about.
Why do atheists believe that they are more tolerant than others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireandice1000
With that said, I don't understand why the atheist community and similiar communities try to portray themselves as tolerant when in my experience they come across as being somewhat far from it.
What do you think?
The simple truth is, and individuals may differ, but the simple truth is that atheists in general are more tolerant than many, many theists.
Atheists don't try to get the government to indoctrinate children in atheism, whereas many theists and many theist churches do.
Atheists don't try to get the government to prefer atheism to religious belief, or to enshrine atheistic ideas in our national motto or other official pronouncements.
Atheists don't try to pass and enforce laws that require anyone who holds public office to be atheist.
Unlike President Bush, atheists don't claim that people who believe in got are not really citizens.
Quote:
Mr. Bush replied, “I don’t know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.”
In the specific area you are referring to, atheists do not take our moral guidance from a book that asserts that homosexuality is an abomination.
I would say that most of the people I spend time with are atheists and I have never heard a single one of them express hostility to LGBT people. I'm surprised that your experience has been different. I disagree with your statement that you don't expect most people to accept LGBT people: you have every right to expect people in general and the society as a whole to accept you for who you are. If you spend any time reading the threads here about homosexuality or same-sex marriage you will see that the predominant reason given for hostility to them is religious in nature.
Last edited by jackmccullough; 07-09-2012 at 09:14 AM..
I'm not questioning your beliefs, I don't think a person needs faith to be righteous. I am, for the most part, more orthodox in my faith versus the average American. I cannot concieve of a life without faith; while I am not Christian, Catholic, or Protestant, I do agree and follow much of what the GOD of Abraham says in the books of the Bible. However, GOD would not condemn someone who follows a faith outside the Abrahamic faiths or is ambivalent on faith.
With that said, I don't understand why the atheist community and similiar communities try to portray themselves as tolerant when in my experience they come across as being somewhat far from it. I identify as LGBT and some of the worst discrimination and treatment have come from people who were either atheist, deist, or some combination of those two or more. I have encountered discrimination from Christians and the Protestant/Catholic community, but they were usually pretty tame on their actual actions. I don't expect most people to accept LGBT people; I learned to live with that over a decade ago. But what makes me a bit mad is how a lot of atheists and similar groups of people (deists, agnostics, humanists, etc) say that they are tolerant and freeminded and intellectual, etc when I think that they aren't that much different from the so-called 'Religious Right'.
What do you think?
I get curious when anyone on here starts a thread with: I'm not questioning your beliefs but. lol We get a lot of that. It's not that I doubt your story but
I'm curious as to what they said or how they discriminated? If they don't have a bible quote as to why you shouldn't be gay, what did they do that showed discrimination? I would need more information to comment. I'm atheist and my daughter is Lesbian. I don't doubt their could be an atheist or two out there that doesn't agree it's just that they aren't that common. Maybe an agnostic, who believes but not in any one certain belief. IDK.
Sorry, but we get a lot of religious people in our area of the forums saying this kind of thing trying to prove atheists are as mean as believers, a lot of it is made up to prove a point. That's why I ask. It's temping to witness to non believers so we get a lot more religious people on here than they get atheists on theirs. Part of the territory. Just tell me how you knew they were atheist and what they did, that will help. Just a little more specific instead of a general statement.
Last edited by PoppySead; 07-09-2012 at 09:40 AM..
As others have pointed out, you are confusing groups who subscribe to a doctrine versus behavior you've seen from individuals. There is no atheist "doctrine" that says one must be pro-LGBT or vice versa. Yet I would imagine that since most anti-LGBT folks are that way due to their religious beliefs, you certainly will find a higher rate of acceptance among atheists and that polling would almost certainly indicate this.
Your second point about non-believers being not that much different from the 'Religious Right' couldn't be more off base. This is a common misunderstanding among those who don't understand non-belief. While inidividual atheists may share similar characteristics, they are not united on most subjects because of their atheism. I will 100% guarantee you right now that any person who treated you poorly because of your sexuality did so NOT because of their non-belief in God. In fact I bet you'd even agree that such a line of thinking would be absurd. That is like saying "My atheism says homosexuality is wrong and therefore I think you are terrible for being a homosexual." Obviously, atheism says nothing on homosexuality since it has no doctrine and the only thing atheists all have in common is the lack of belief in God.
Contrast that to right wing Christians who discriminate against you because they are Christian. I am sure you have heard at several points throughout your life how God disapproves of you and that Christians believe homosexuality is wrong, vile, or worse. As others have stated, atheists can be jerks and Christians can be jerks. But an athiest would not treat you poorly because they are an atheist, they would treat you poorly because they just aren't a good person.
Now this is why so many non-believers think poorly of religion and probably think of themselves as "more tolerant." Many religions already start from the premise that you are flawed because of your LGBT orientation. Good people who subscribe to these religions (or take them fundamentally) can discriminate or treat you different because of their religions, and then when bad people who subscribe to those beliefs...well that's how groups like the Westboro Baptist Church come about.
I think that's a very good point...this one, I mean. " I will 100% guarantee you right now that any person who treated you poorly because of your sexuality did so NOT because of their non-belief in God."
I remarked during our London Riots that it would be hard to believe that any of them were regular Church goers and they probably were at bets Census - Christians of the 'three times in their life' variety.
Thus some of those may well have right wing views and attitudes which might well have been ameliorated by religious belief. These are the ones who can veru well be converted because they do not care nor thing about the case for an against religion.
What I would then say is that any atheist who is what I call a 'thinking' atheist would never have a problem with anyone;s sexuality, even if they didn't share it and the ones who had thought about the religious case and had opted for belief are where you would find hostile views towards gays and the like - not amongst the sort of atheists who think about it.
I find it very hard to believe that atheist intolerance towards the LGBT community is as common as the OP pictures it. I have never met a single atheist in my life who was opposed to homo/bi/transgender sexuality. I'm not saying they don't exist but they are certainly a small minority. We had a thread in this section a while ago that asked whether there were any atheists against homosexuality and IIRC nobody said they were. Try asking that same question in the Christianity section and see what response you'll get. To say that atheists are as intolerant as Christians when it comes to sexuality is simply absurd.
The LGBT community has no greater ally than atheists in their struggle for equal rights and that is a fact.
I think that some people seem to assume that being an atheist makes you part of something, an "atheist religion" per se, whereas it's the opposite. It isn't a movement with rules to be followed, it's free will and free thought so you can't put atheists in a box for convenience.
I find it very hard to believe that atheist intolerance towards the LGBT community is as common as the OP pictures it. I have never met a single atheist in my life who was opposed to homo/bi/transgender sexuality. I'm not saying they don't exist but they are certainly a small minority. We had a thread in this section a while ago that asked whether there were any atheists against homosexuality and IIRC nobody said they were. Try asking that same question in the Christianity section and see what response you'll get. To say that atheists are as intolerant as Christians when it comes to sexuality is simply absurd.
The LGBT community has no greater ally than atheists in their struggle for equal rights and that is a fact.
Agreed, and I have had the very same experience.
With the recent vote to add discrimination against gays to NC's state constitution, I was witness the bloviating purveyors of hate and ignorance, common name preacher, shoving each other away from the microphone so they could express their ignorance born bigotry in front of the news cameras, including Franklin and Billy Graham.
Talk to the common man (non-preacher type) and their reasoning was because "the bible says so". Stunning ignorance.
OK.....I am an Atheist and I am also heterosexual. I have nothing against homosexuals, after a fashion I would be glad to see more males becoming homosexuals, it would leave more of the females for me!!! Ah.....the rigors of civic responsibility!!!
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