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That was a very interesting vid concerning your reasons for leaving religion (Islam). Religion can be full of confusion, war, anxiety and the list goes on. And for the reasons you gave i have seen others leave religion for practically the same evaluations (fallible books). But i do have some questions i would like to ask,
If we take out the deity factor, then what is the true origin of our Universe, from the atheist point of view, or perhaps yours?
How did we get here, with the complexities of our design and the order that prevails in the laws of the universe, how did this all happen?
Was it aliens? And i am not being funny, i truly would like to know your take on this.
I was at one time where you are at, but my reasons were due to the examining of religion based on the actions of human beings, the representatives and the like.
I am truly baffled with atheist that leave out the equation of our complex universe, and you mentioned there is no evidence for belief in a deity, I would have to say there is no evidence to believe that life happened by chance. Of course those are things i ponder on often as well.
That was a very interesting vid concerning your reasons for leaving religion (Islam). Religion can be full of confusion, war, anxiety and the list goes on. And for the reasons you gave i have seen others leave religion for practically the same evaluations (fallible books). But i do have some questions i would like to ask,
If we take out the deity factor, then what is the true origin of our Universe, from the atheist point of view, or perhaps yours?
How did we get here, with the complexities of our design and the order that prevails in the laws of the universe, how did this all happen?
Was it aliens? And i am not being funny, i truly would like to know your take on this.
I was at one time where you are at, but my reasons were due to the examining of religion based on the actions of human beings, the representatives and the like.
I am truly baffled with atheist that leave out the equation of our complex universe, and you mentioned there is no evidence for belief in a deity, I would have to say there is no evidence to believe that life happened by chance. Of course those are things i ponder on often as well.
Please, i would like your answer on this.
Thanks,
I have a perfectly straight face. Aliens or bioforms delivered by comet or meteor are possible explanations for human origins as much as a creative deity. However, those possibilities relate to the origins of life rather than Cosmic origins, which really become a bit rarefied and abstract for purposes of discussion and I prefer to say 'I really don't know one way or the other'.
About life and animal and human origins, the evidence is compelling - it evolved. It was not created wholesale. The matter of what started off that first bioform is still without any evidence one way or another, though there are some good theoretical models and some suggestive research.
That is really not the reason why people become atheists, (or indeed agnostics or for that matter, irreligious theists). It is because they cannot believe the Holy Books, the god - claims made in the holy Books nor indeed the holy Books themselves. They are so sure that these are merely the results of human imagination that they leave religion and become unbelievers in religion.
They may still believe in and worship a god in whatever way they feel appropriate. To the religion they left and to all the others, they are still Unbelievers.
They may think a Mind behind life -origins and Cosmic origins probable. They may thus call themselves 'agnostic' in the sense of they do not actually know whether there is a god or not but think it quite probable. That may not be technically correct, but I prefer to understand what they mean rather than tell them they have it technically wrong.
They are for sure unbelievers in God and religion - of any kind; and to me they are my brothers and sisters. And the Irreligious Theists are at least my kissing cousins.
If we take out the deity factor, then what is the true origin of our Universe
From what I can tell, the Universe is amazing, and I have no idea how it got here. I'm sure glad to be alive and be a part of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathamun
How did we get here, with the complexities of our design
Thanks to various energy sources (solar, lightening, chemical, etc.), atoms combined into complex molecules. Some of the molecules developed the ability to replicate themselves, and 'life' started, and evolution led to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathamun
you mentioned there is no evidence for belief in a deity, I would have to say there is no evidence to believe that life happened by chance.
You are correct. All we know is what we see right now and we have to guess what happened in the past. It would be kind of sad if we had all of the answers, wouldn't it?
That was a very interesting vid concerning your reasons for leaving religion (Islam). Religion can be full of confusion, war, anxiety and the list goes on. And for the reasons you gave i have seen others leave religion for practically the same evaluations (fallible books). But i do have some questions i would like to ask,
If we take out the deity factor, then what is the true origin of our Universe, from the atheist point of view, or perhaps yours?
How did we get here, with the complexities of our design and the order that prevails in the laws of the universe, how did this all happen?
Was it aliens? And i am not being funny, i truly would like to know your take on this.
I was at one time where you are at, but my reasons were due to the examining of religion based on the actions of human beings, the representatives and the like.
I am truly baffled with atheist that leave out the equation of our complex universe, and you mentioned there is no evidence for belief in a deity, I would have to say there is no evidence to believe that life happened by chance. Of course those are things i ponder on often as well.
Please, i would like your answer on this.
Thanks,
The question is irrelevant. It's just a God Of The Gaps argument.
"If you can't answer X, then GodDidIt!"
But that is no logical answer. The Egyptians had no idea what the sun was, or why it rose and set each day. But just because they couldn't explain it doesn't mean it was Ra, a deity, as they believed.
Mental illness used to be a complete mystery, explained by demonic possession -- another made-up story to fill a gap in knowledge.
Why did someone get sick and die? Primitive medicine had no idea, so what was really cancer, or an infectious disease, or heart disease, was explained away by invoking God's displeasure at the deceased.
Every time science solves a former mystery, your God Of The Gaps argument dies a little more. This is why more than a few theologians reject your God Of The Gaps notion - it's 'logic' (for lack of a better term) has a fatal and glaringly obvious flaw.
Your argument from ignorance is a very poor attempt at logic.
Even if I did accept evolution, that in itself would not negate a deity. Not that I am saying that I accept evolution, but it is probable in my eyes. Much like we as humans might be involved in experimentation with simple machinery and as the need is compelled we start to build upon it, making it more efficient for the needs of its use. But even with that there is organization, someone to lead it to its final point of efficiency. But still, we cannot avoid questions like, if evolution was the process, how did the organisms gain the mutations to change into the organism that works best for the task? One might say ‘adaptation’, but how did the organism learn or understand adaptation, how did it learn to relate to its environment, how did the brain evolve, what makes the organism move about (Like electricity to the appliance) and the questions go on.
Yes it is easy in my opinion to just say a creator or deity did it all and there you have it, no more wondering and the like. But to say that would not be far from what we experience in our world and universe that surrounds us
There are no examples today to show that from chance comes order and complexity. One might reason that this is a process that takes millions or billions of years, but even so, if this is a process that did happen and is a reality in our universe we should have small examples today that reflect this. If our world and the universe is a result of chance then smaller aspects of that should not be hard to find. A flower growing without seed or water, examples around the world where children are born without sperm, etc (not referring to asexual activity with smaller organisms that is merely a result of spltting). There should be something that we can build on to show a measure of proof that this is a reality. But what we find throughout mans existence is no examples of the sort. However, what we do have is examples found that life always abound from a start (another organism), a mechanism of growth.
All of the sources mentioned in the replies molecules, matter, atoms, etc. all had beginnings, there is just not enough evidence, or evidence at all to even make one delude to the idea of life spontaneously emerging, without the assistance of a maker, designer, source of creation. So many atheist, like myself at one time, just answer with “we don’t know.”
All of the technical speech I use to use in trying to disclaim creation and prove evolution only brought me back to the simplicity of, ‘this is a hypothesis, or this is all conjecture or simply again, ‘We don’t know.’[/SIZE]
I found that such statements allow the mind to wonder and create ideas that will hopefully take one further than a creator. But just because one believes in the existence of an intelligent source of creation does not mean that ends the growth of the mind. All it did for me is help me to appreciate even more fully the wonders and magnificence of what was designed and the care and concern put into it.
All life is governed by rules and laws, the distance of the planets from each other, the way they orbit, the seasonal changes and the right environment to support life. And I am to believe that came about merely by chance.
Like Dr. Spock would say, “that is simply illogical, but a source of creation being intelligent…is logic.”
The argument will continue on both sides ‘whats the proof?’, but I believe there is far more evidence and proof for a deity then there not being any intelligence to have caused all of this.
And the reason I say this, can be based off the old example given by many creationist. If you walk into a barren dessert and in the middle of it is a mansion with all of the fixings, plumbing, electricity and the like, one would not conclude, “Oh, this is a beautiful mansion, the magnificence of it proves that if got here by chance.” Of course not. One would have to conclude that it had a maker. Even though the architect is nowhere to be found in the dessert, only you and this mansion, still you have to conclude that it had a maker. The same with creation, we cannot see this intelligent source of creation, but after observing the complexity of our natural world and the universe that surrounds us, we have to automatically conclude that there was a designer. It HAD to be one, to give us the order that we have today. The Hiroshima bomb did not bring order from its devastation to japan, it only brought confusion, death, sickness and chaos.
As science continues to grow and solve mysteries of the past, it debunks mankinds ignorance, but it only increases the likelihood of an intelligent designer. Whether one calls him aliens, master organism or deity, still the story remains the same…intelligence is responsible for our magnificent universe.
@ GREEN ONIONS: Just because human beings of the ancient world was incapable of explaining these things does not negate the existence of a deity, it just meant they were not evolved technologically to explain how the world works and why. Just because people said sickness was due to the expressions of a God and science come along and prove differently does not negate the deity, it discredits those of that time that lacked the proper knowledge and understanding.
If we are to believe in evolution, then we are to also accept that man evolves mentally in his perception of his world. But that has nothing to do with the failings of the intelligent source of creation. Nor does any of it disprove an intelligent creator. It only proves free will, and mankind given the ability to choose for himself in his belief and actions. That supreme one allowing men to grow at his own level and pace in time.
You mentioned there is no logic to my question:
“If we take out the deity factor, then what is the true origin of our Universe, from the atheist point of view, or perhaps yours?”
Why is that not a logical question? Is it because evolution cannot answer it, so its logic surpasses the logic evolution gives to the answer?
It is exceedingly logical, because what is logic? Logic is: sensible argument and thought: sensible rational thought and argument rather than ideas.
Is it not LOGICAL to believe that a car had a designer, a bike, a tv and the like all had designers? Of course it is, so if we are to believe these simple things had intelligence behind them, we should even moreso believe that for our universe, that is our experience here on this planet, design, beginnings. It is illogical to think that this concept of design takes a back door when evaluating the complexities of our universe.
Remember logic is ‘rational’ and rational is governed by, or showing evidence of, clear and sensible thinking and judgment, based on reason rather than emotion or prejudice.
So the whole point of the issue is, it is rational, or logical to believe that life was designed intelligently based on our experience of understanding in our universe, and all that we observe. However, it is irrational, or illogical to believe that complexity comes through chance, we have no evidence, even on a small plane, to prove such thinking.
That's really it, Rathamun. If you want to argue that logically there must be a point at which 'everything' got started and you have to conclude that some kind of volition was behind it, then you do that. There is a case for it (still) though it is not (as Prof. Dawkins said) one that I would accept. But that is not the issue here. The issue is, and it is the issue raised in the video, can one believe in a particular religion? Islam, Christianity or any other?
First cause is not the answer, though theists often try to pretend that it is. One can still think some kind of what we might call a god, starting and indeed controlling everything, as logically probable and even buy the supposed evidence of order in the universe, but they needn't buy into any religion or its man made gods. They could still no more believe in the man -invented personal gods than the chap in the video does, or I do.
Belief in some sorta First Cause is another matter entirely. Don't let theism bamboozle you into thinking that any such postulated First cause HAS to be any one of the gods of the man- made religions.
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Aliens or bioforms delivered by comet or meteor are possible explanations for human origins as much as a creative deity. However, those possibilities relate to the origins of life rather than Cosmic origins, which really become a bit rarefied and abstract for purposes of discussion and I prefer to say 'I really don't know one way or the other'.
