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Old 06-04-2013, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I think it's even simpler than that. The apologists first tries to out- argue the atheist and gets roundly thumped - not because they are more intelligent, but simply because the evidence supports the atheist view - but the apologists supposes they are just misusing their intelligence in cunning arguments to twist the Truth.
The only recourse is to attack the suppose Intelligence as implying arrogance, superiority complex, thinking they are smarter than everyone else.

If the goddless are misled into such a supposition, it is only because most theist apologetics is so poor.
Yes, that is the reason I think apologists are so tetchy. However there are various Chinese walls built around belief that blind them to this. You alluded to one, the belief that the only way their "airtight" arguments can get thumped is by crafty, deviant, unfair methods and hence the tendency towards character assassination. This plays well with "The wisdom of god is foolishness to those who perish". Another thing is the idea that "Jesus Never Fails", "Faith Maketh Not Ashamed", etc. It is utter taboo to suggest that the point of failure can be anywhere but on the human side, or at best, deflected to Satan (although he supposedly cannot function unless believers "give him place"). It is utter taboo to suggest that faith is anything but a lofty virtue. It is utter taboo to suggest that morality or ethics are emergent properties of society rather than externally defined and handed down from on high.

To the apologist, the only kind of person who would ever be so crass, so disrespectful, so utterly ev-ee-ill as to get past any of these taboos, is a godless atheist-pervert-demon-possessed-hellspawn. The only person who would question your cherished beliefs in your presence (and, not incidentally, tempt you to consider these questions honestly) is rude, hateful, spiteful, and out to destroy you.

This is why theists otherize, demonize and dehumanize us in ways they would never do for someone of a "lesser" denomination, an ignorant savage, or even a Mormon or JW. At least those people generally believe in some form of god, are merely uninformed and there is hope for them to come around. There is little chance we will be impressed with their BS, and they know it. Nor do we conform well to their target mark: the person who is "lost" and "hurting" and knows they need "saving". If there's anything worse to a theist than an atheist, it's a happy, generous, ethical atheist who mows his lawn, pays his taxes, and has well behaved children.

 
Old 06-04-2013, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
11,328 posts, read 9,214,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
Why are some "insert group of people here" so mean? Same reason.
I'll insert: "Christians"

Some of the meanest and dishonest people I have ever come across in life, especially the church goers.

All has one has to do is take a good look at the amount of believers that are in the judicial system.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Yes, that is the reason I think apologists are so tetchy. However there are various Chinese walls built around belief that blind them to this. You alluded to one, the belief that the only way their "airtight" arguments can get thumped is by crafty, deviant, unfair methods and hence the tendency towards character assassination. This plays well with "The wisdom of god is foolishness to those who perish". Another thing is the idea that "Jesus Never Fails", "Faith Maketh Not Ashamed", etc. It is utter taboo to suggest that the point of failure can be anywhere but on the human side, or at best, deflected to Satan (although he supposedly cannot function unless believers "give him place"). It is utter taboo to suggest that faith is anything but a lofty virtue. It is utter taboo to suggest that morality or ethics are emergent properties of society rather than externally defined and handed down from on high.

To the apologist, the only kind of person who would ever be so crass, so disrespectful, so utterly ev-ee-ill as to get past any of these taboos, is a godless atheist-pervert-demon-possessed-hellspawn. The only person who would question your cherished beliefs in your presence (and, not incidentally, tempt you to consider these questions honestly) is rude, hateful, spiteful, and out to destroy you.

This is why theists otherize, demonize and dehumanize us in ways they would never do for someone of a "lesser" denomination, an ignorant savage, or even a Mormon or JW. At least those people generally believe in some form of god, are merely uninformed and there is hope for them to come around. There is little chance we will be impressed with their BS, and they know it. Nor do we conform well to their target mark: the person who is "lost" and "hurting" and knows they need "saving". If there's anything worse to a theist than an atheist, it's a happy, generous, ethical atheist who mows his lawn, pays his taxes, and has well behaved children.
The wisdom of god is foolishness to those who perish". Oh yes indeed. In fact, the Gospels are full of this inverted terminology. wisdom is foolishness and foolishness is wisdom. 'Truth' is Faith (even if it isn't 'true') and truth if it doesn't tend towards faith is the lies of Satan, even if it happens to be, coincidentally, fact.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The wisdom of god is foolishness to those who perish". Oh yes indeed. In fact, the Gospels are full of this inverted terminology. wisdom is foolishness and foolishness is wisdom. 'Truth' is Faith (even if it isn't 'true') and truth if it doesn't tend towards faith is the lies of Satan, even if it happens to be, coincidentally, fact.
It's inverted and it's anti-intellectual. The human mind is not perfect and isn't always right, and intellect and wisdom, though interrelated, are different things. However, Christianity is downright hostile to reason, as least with respect to any topic related to faith, as intellect gets in the way of belief. That is a fundamental problem.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 11:58 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
It's inverted and it's anti-intellectual. The human mind is not perfect and isn't always right, and intellect and wisdom, though interrelated, are different things. However, Christianity is downright hostile to reason, as least with respect to any topic related to faith, as intellect gets in the way of belief. That is a fundamental problem.
Matth. 11. 25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Matth. 11. 25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
[sigh] I used to take that verse as a real pat on the head. Lapped it right up. Not until one steps outside the reality distortion field can you see it for what it is.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 07:09 PM
 
25 posts, read 67,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
In my life I have known Atheists I love to be around, and others I would avoid. The ones I avoid, the best way I would describe is trying to be smarter than everyone. They are the ones who want to know if a person is intelligent, before they even want to know the person.

What do you think?
I don't think atheist are mean. Although that is the opinion I got from an atheist when I first came across someone who claimed to be whatever it is an atheist claims to believe, "which is nothing". I think atheist just happen to be very opinionated and don't really think much about what it is they are saying to other people because they don't really care. When I say don't care, I mean they don't care if it offends someone else because it goes against "their beliefs" even though they supposedly don't have any. Go figure.

Last edited by Whatisausername?; 06-04-2013 at 07:19 PM..
 
Old 06-04-2013, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,987,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatisausername? View Post
I don't think atheist are mean. Although that is the opinion I got from an atheist when I first came across someone who claimed to be whatever it is an atheist claims to believe, "which is nothing".:
Atheist do not believe in spiritualistic explanations of the cosmos, that does not mean they believe in nothing.

There is the entire array of the natural world and unless the particular atheist is also a nihilist, he or she believes in that natural world and in the discovered natural laws which are in operation.

Further, an atheist who rejects the idea of a deity, could still in theory subscribe to other types of superstitions. I don't mean astrology or witchcraft, those are also spiritually informed beliefs, rather I mean things such as:

No matter which checkout line I choose, it will be the slowest.

The driver I just courteously allowed to cut in front of me will now drive at 15 mph.

Something horrible will happen when I travel.

Those beliefs are all based on repetitive experiences, but perhaps with emotional memory coloring the accuracy so that it isn't really scientific.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,769 posts, read 13,299,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Further, an atheist who rejects the idea of a deity, could still in theory subscribe to other types of superstitions. I don't mean astrology or witchcraft, those are also spiritually informed beliefs...
Almost, but not quite. An atheist doesn't believe in god(s) ... a person who doesn't believe in god(s) can still believe in an afterlife, ghosts, karma, and many other forms of "woo" by simply assuming there is a naturalistic explanation for these things -- they are not really "supernatural", rather they are just part of the natural world that we don't fully perceive or understand.

I don't think such atheists are terribly common but I have met one or two.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,987,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Almost, but not quite. An atheist doesn't believe in god(s) ... a person who doesn't believe in god(s) can still believe in an afterlife, ghosts, karma, and many other forms of "woo" by simply assuming there is a naturalistic explanation for these things -- they are not really "supernatural", rather they are just part of the natural world that we don't fully perceive or understand.

I don't think such atheists are terribly common but I have met one or two.
Well, if someone believes that the phenomena of a ghost may be experienced, but that person is persuaded that eventually it will be discovered that some natural force was responsible for the ghost perception, that isn't "believing in ghosts", is it?

When I see a magic trick on stage I may not be able to figure out the process behind the illusion, but I am confident that it was a calculated, man made illusion, I don't default to "believe in magic."

I will modify my previous statement to say that it is probably uncommon to find an atheist who subscribes to alternative superstitious explanations for things. The low probability arises from the relationship between atheism and skepticism.
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