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Here's the thing though. Atheists (of these kind) are just like the people they make fun of. They proselyte using social media and books, they form groups and hold meetings to discuss Atheism, (sounds like church to me) and they are very much in your face about it. The only difference between religious freaks and atheist freaks are that religious freaks claim to have a moral and spiritual superiority over atheists, and atheists freaks claim to have intellectual superiority over believers. Yet they both claim to have something the other does not. Silly.
I am age seventy-five, and I must be half "blessed" because no one has ever tried to convert me to atheism or even discuss, that I can recall. Religious proselytizing I have not escaped...the door to door stuff is annoying, but the evangelical christians at work who were constantly trying to engage a largely Jewish staff in religious discussions and simply would not back off or desist drove me nuts.
Quote:
...Atheists aren't immoral and the religious aren't dumb. How hard is it to just admit that and try to find peace and understanding with one another?
Unfortunately I am reminded of the conservative and liberal political camps in the U.S. who, each with a need to be right and an unwillingness to compromise and actually govern, have made the U.S. a fractured society and a seriously out of whack economy and a government that sometimes hardly seems to function. Why should god-believers and atheists be any different?
For the life of me I don't understand why so many care and in many cases get upset over what others believe.
It's not rocket science. People get into high dudgeon about their beliefs when one or both of the following occurs:
1) They are married to a belief to the extent that when the belief is so much as questioned, they feel personally attacked.
2) They don't feel heard / respected.
The particular debate under discussion, in general, tends to be between theists identified with beliefs not listening to atheists or respecting their right to decide what they believe. It's particularly pernicious in that the most strident theists don't believe anyone has a right to decide what their own beliefs are, but must accept without question beliefs that are givens.
It's really that simple -- and that complex.
Note that I didn't say that there are not atheists who are better described under (1) above and theists who experience (2) from those atheists. I'm speaking very narrowly, about the majority of theists and atheists who care to engage on these topics in fora like this one. It is totally understandable that the people on both sides of the faith question who would engage on a platform like this are those with the strongest beliefs and the most polarized differences.
The value in these debates is that, despite their seemingly endless nature, they do tend to bring people to higher levels of awareness and to modify their approach. It forces even the most mindless and unaware debater to put forth their best arguments and to have at least a veneer of civility. Once in awhile people even change their minds. And I don't really care if that's an atheist (re)converting to some religion or other. I think it's all good because it reduces rigidity of thinking and increases people's options in life.
As a former theist I am able to have more understanding and compassion for theist mindsets. Within theism, if atheists are more than some caricatured Other who represents a DefCon 4 threat, if instead they are just fellow human beings dealing with their own stuff as best they can, then I'm content. That is an achievable goal. I don't see humanity as a whole anywhere near ready to largely let go of its religious illusions and ideals, even though I think it will happen some generations down the road. So in the meantime I just want to leave people to do whatever they need to do to get through their days, so long as they don't demonize me in the process or expect me to adopt their self-imposed limitations.
Here's something that tickles me about most atheists I know: they purport to hold some kind of intelligent superiority over 'believers', often mocking them and trolling them on the internet or in person. Believers are stupid because the vehemently support and worship some invisible guy in the clouds. How stupid are they, right? Lets spend all this time and energy deriding them for it. My Facebook is riddled with these messages on a daily basis. Another major complaint of my Atheist friends is that they are sick and tired of the religious and their annoying yet feeble attempts at shoving religion down our throats, especially through a bombardment of proselytizing (Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses knocking on doors, endless cable TV shows of whacky religions sermons, etc).
Here's the thing though. Atheists (of these kind) are just like the people they make fun of. They proselyte using social media and books, they form groups and hold meetings to discuss Atheism, (sounds like church to me) and they are very much in your face about it. The only difference between religious freaks and atheist freaks are that religious freaks claim to have a moral and spiritual superiority over atheists, and atheists freaks claim to have intellectual superiority over believers. Yet they both claim to have something the other does not. Silly.
As an agnostic, both are wrong. Both sides despise the other even though they are mirror images of each other.
Doesn't it make the most logical sense to make no claim at all? Maybe there is a God, maybe their isn't. There's no way to say either way. I don't care if you believe in a God, I don't care if you don't. I don't mind religious symbols in our schools and government, because I understand why they're there. Doesn't bother me. And I also understand that sometimes its taken too far and needs to be balanced. But why all the fuss over who is right, who is wrong, who is smart and who is dumb? Does it really matter?
Atheists aren't immoral and the religious aren't dumb. How hard is it to just admit that and try to find peace and understanding with one another?
/rant off
Maybe there are leprechauns, maybe they're aren't.
Right?
Of course, no one runs around claiming to be a leprechaun agnostic. And no one demands agnosticism regarding Ares or Thor or Osiris.
The demand that we 'just cannot know' always centers around... 'God'. Which tells us all we really need to know about the motivation for such pleadings.
Maybe there are leprechauns, maybe they're aren't.
Right?
Of course, no one runs around claiming to be a leprechaun agnostic. And no one demands agnosticism regarding Ares or Thor or Osiris.
Exactly my thoughts. According to me, agnostics have the stupidest position out of the three: theists, atheists, agnostics. It's like saying: maybe there is a santa claus maybe there is isn't. If you are consistent, you agnostics would be agnostics for everything: tooth fairy, santa claus, yeti ....
Exactly my thoughts. According to me, agnostics have the stupidest position out of the three: theists, atheists, agnostics. It's like saying: maybe there is a santa claus maybe there is isn't. If you are consistent, you agnostics would be agnostics for everything: tooth fairy, santa claus, yeti ....
You don't suppose the 10% of society that invariably chooses "Not Sure" on public opinion surveys or the 10% of voters that are still "undecided" on Election Day are agnostics?
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