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I am an atheist, but have never actually met any in person (how strange is that). All my friends and family are Christians (with the exception of one friend who is a deist). I do not think they are stupid. I do however think that they are closed-minded at times. I don't doubt that there are Christians who actually read through the whole Bible, but I will tell you that most atheists actually came from religious backgrounds and usually have read all the scriptures of whatever faith they follow. Many atheists can recite more Bible verses than Christians can. When a soon to be atheist is in that questioning religion stage, it's usually because of something he/she read in scriptures. They read something that would be considered immoral, they see something that contradicts logic, or some kind of law in the universe, and that's all it takes for skepticism to kick in. That's kind of how my story goes. The thing is, I can't name one of my family members who has read the Bible all the way through. Not to say that all who will will become atheists, but reading all the verses will definitely bring up questions if you're not one to just absorb everything you read. This is the problem I see is that most people just accept things without at least questioning it or analyzing it themselves. That's my only problem. I have nothing against theists. My father, who was the smartest person I ever knew, was a theist. The man could explain physics to people that didn't even know basic math for crying out loud.
No, not really. I understand what you're getting at though. I suppose deep down regardless of the profession or intellectual capability of a person, I do feel that I disagree with them. I don't mentally "roll my eyes" when I hear people talk about a belief in God. I do, however, really wonder sometimes as to whether people REALLY believe. I think there's more to be said for that then how I feel about a person in regards to their belief.
I'll stick to the realm of what we might consider top scientists, thinkers, etc... for now. I do wonder if they REALLY believe. Of course, I wouldn't question someone about it, but I really do wonder. Do they REALLY believe that man has been on Earth for 150,000-250,000 years, dealt with strife, famine, hunger, incredibly high death rates, the near extinction of man, and then only about three to four thousand years ago this god who stood by throughout all of this time watching this finally decided to make himself known to a bunch of Bronze Age Middle Eastern farmers and goat herders??? I think that what happens is you cross the realm of whatever frame of mind that is scientific, logical, and in plain view and you have to put that into a faith-based aspect. I think it's entirely predicated on faith and I can't really come to a conclusion that that makes one stupid. I really can't. Do I find it illogical, and unfounded? Yes, I do, but it doesn't necessarily make it STUPID.
What I'm getting at in terms of REALLY believing is that I've heard many a person say "That's why they call it faith". It seems to me like it's an admission of something people KNOW is illogical and unfounded and have often hypothesized to themselves. It sounds like "Look, I know you're going to think I'm crazy but I'm telling you, there's a guy up in the sky watching after us. I know it sounds crazy, I know it's unfounded and illogical, but I'm telling you, it's true and I'm pretty sure I believe it regardless." However, that doesn't necessarily make one stupid. It just makes me question whether they REALLY believe it or not.
Now, on another note, do I really feel that some of the zany proofs people try to come up with in order to prove their faith(s) are real are stupid? Well, look, I do understand about faith, and I do understand that people want to put that faith into some sort of actual perspective. Of course they want to find some sort of "backing" to make sure their faith is real. Who wouldn't, right? No one wants to be looked at or called stupid for their faith/belief. However, once we cross the realm of that which is evidential to that which is attempting to prove one's strict faith with false evidences I find that the irrationality factor (and yes, stupidity) grows and grows.
Something that I do wonder about is this: Is it possible for someone to set aside all rationality, scientific awareness and achievement and substitute that with their faith? In other words, if you were to go to a doctor, would that doctor put aside all medicinal knowledge, their knowledge of the human body, and all the training they've acquired to substitute that with "I'll pray for you."?? Well, of course not, and I don't suspect you'd be apt to continue seeing that doctor if that were the only thing they came to as a 'fix' for your ailment. Well, why is that? Because almost every one of us knows that there's a scientifically merited answer to an ailment. Some are by far harder than others to fix. Now, let's say you went to a doctor, and they said we're going to hit you with chemo, we're going to do this and that, and this and that, and don't worry "I'll also be praying for you." Than I don't think they have abandoned their faith (or scientific reasoning) or jeopardized yours. All they have really done is put something into context that hopefully gives you a more positively spiritual approach to things. No one is abandoning scientific merit based on evidence with that faith-based approach, they're simply adding that in there. What I do find stupid is a wreckless abandonment of all things scientifically known just to prove one's faith. To me, it's the exact same thing as my doctor telling me she's going to pray for me in order to mend my broken arm when all I need is for it to be set and have a cast put on. Make sense?
Perfectly put, GCS!
I'm sorry if I'm over stepping boundaries by posting here, being that I AM a believer, however, I just had a couple of things I would like to add.
GSC, I totally understand your example of the doctor praying vs medical attention vs the combination of the two. When I broke my ankle 4 years ago (it was a SEVERE break! Broke the tibia, fibula and completely displaced my foot from my leg! ) my doctor was awesome! He was extremely intelligent and very kind. I was, of course, totally freaking out about the whole thing. Honestly, I thought I may never walk normally again. However, after surgery/recovery etc. he came in to talk to me and told me he would be praying for me.
I can understand how many might think that is absolutely absurd, but I was totally at ease and comforted knowing that, not only was he amazingly intelligent and medically knowledgeable, but he was praying for me as well. NO, I would NEVER substitute ONLY prayer for medical knowledge! That would be CRAZY!!!! I believe God gave us a brain and the sense to use it!
Believe me, I have met a great deal of Christians that were not exactly the "sharpest tool in the shed", however, I have met plenty of non-Christians that fit into the exact same category. I don't think any less of an atheist than I do anyone else. I don't think any differently about people of other religions than I do anyone else...UNLESS, that particular religion is a threat to society and our overall safety and well being. That includes cults as well as any radicals!
I'm sorry if I'm over stepping boundaries by posting here, being that I AM a believer, however, I just had a couple of things I would like to add.
GSC, I totally understand your example of the doctor praying vs medical attention vs the combination of the two. When I broke my ankle 4 years ago (it was a SEVERE break! Broke the tibia, fibula and completely displaced my foot from my leg! ) my doctor was awesome! He was extremely intelligent and very kind. I was, of course, totally freaking out about the whole thing. Honestly, I thought I may never walk normally again. However, after surgery/recovery etc. he came in to talk to me and told me he would be praying for me.
I can understand how many might think that is absolutely absurd, but I was totally at ease and comforted knowing that, not only was he amazingly intelligent and medically knowledgeable, but he was praying for me as well. NO, I would NEVER substitute ONLY prayer for medical knowledge! That would be CRAZY!!!! I believe God gave us a brain and the sense to use it!
Believe me, I have met a great deal of Christians that were not exactly the "sharpest tool in the shed", however, I have met plenty of non-Christians that fit into the exact same category. I don't think any less of an atheist than I do anyone else. I don't think any differently about people of other religions than I do anyone else...UNLESS, that particular religion is a threat to society and our overall safety and well being. That includes cults as well as any radicals!
i'd be careful with what you describe as a cult or a radical though. i am sure that early christians were considered a cult, and Christ was certainly a radical in his doctrine and method.
haaziq: this is in no way to discount your experience, just to add my own. the majority of athiests that i have become well acquainted with came to their decision based off of the state of organized religion, and the world in general, rather than doctrinal or historical questions that came to them through the scriptures. most of them had questions about how a God would allow children to be abused by religious leaders, or why there was so much confusion and hostility in the world, bloody wars, brutal riots, etc, started in the name of a supposedly peaceful and compassionate God. most of the athiests that i have gotten to know admitted that they simply cannot fathom a God who would allow the world to suffer the way it is today, and so much of it in the name of (insert zealous religion here).
i'd be careful with what you describe as a cult or a radical though. i am sure that early christians were considered a cult, and Christ was certainly a radical in his doctrine and method.
haaziq: this is in no way to discount your experience, just to add my own. the majority of athiests that i have become well acquainted with came to their decision based off of the state of organized religion, and the world in general, rather than doctrinal or historical questions that came to them through the scriptures. most of them had questions about how a God would allow children to be abused by religious leaders, or why there was so much confusion and hostility in the world, bloody wars, brutal riots, etc, started in the name of a supposedly peaceful and compassionate God. most of the athiests that i have gotten to know admitted that they simply cannot fathom a God who would allow the world to suffer the way it is today, and so much of it in the name of (insert zealous religion here).
I don't doubt that you're telling the truth. Maybe it's just where we "find" our atheists. You happen to actually know some. I don't. The ones that I "follow" are usually ones that own websites or have a youtube account or whatever the case may be. Seems like they all questioned scriptures and questioned things that didn't seem right. Not to mention, when I go to atheist forums, it's more about questioning scriptures than questioning "God's methods". But then again, I've had limited exposure because I've never actually met another atheist. It is what it is.
i'd be careful with what you describe as a cult or a radical though. i am sure that early christians were considered a cult, and Christ was certainly a radical in his doctrine and method.
haaziq: this is in no way to discount your experience, just to add my own. the majority of athiests that i have become well acquainted with came to their decision based off of the state of organized religion, and the world in general, rather than doctrinal or historical questions that came to them through the scriptures. most of them had questions about how a God would allow children to be abused by religious leaders, or why there was so much confusion and hostility in the world, bloody wars, brutal riots, etc, started in the name of a supposedly peaceful and compassionate God. most of the athiests that i have gotten to know admitted that they simply cannot fathom a God who would allow the world to suffer the way it is today, and so much of it in the name of (insert zealous religion here).
I know this wasn't referenced to me but I felt like responding... I think there's some truth in that to begin with however, for me, even from the time I was five years old I remember doubting it. I was told all these things about God from a very young age by my parents but there was some part of me that just didn't quite get it. I remember one of my first ponderings about it when I was in the shower. I was maybe 5 or 6 years old, and I remember feeling utterly guilty because I thought to myself: How can the existence of such a thing be possible and why is he watching me in the shower?!" I guess you could say, I always felt that God was what I call the "infinite voyeur".
However, it's often things like that that get people wondering. Obviously contradictions and illogical musings about the Bible (or other holy manuscripts) make one wonder but it doesn't necessarily DISPROVE things. I think that first seed of doubt comes (well at least for me) at a young age. It just never quite sat right with me as something logical in nature.
I'm sorry if I'm over stepping boundaries by posting here, being that I AM a believer, however, I just had a couple of things I would like to add.
GSC, I totally understand your example of the doctor praying vs medical attention vs the combination of the two. When I broke my ankle 4 years ago (it was a SEVERE break! Broke the tibia, fibula and completely displaced my foot from my leg! ) my doctor was awesome! He was extremely intelligent and very kind. I was, of course, totally freaking out about the whole thing. Honestly, I thought I may never walk normally again. However, after surgery/recovery etc. he came in to talk to me and told me he would be praying for me.
I can understand how many might think that is absolutely absurd, but I was totally at ease and comforted knowing that, not only was he amazingly intelligent and medically knowledgeable, but he was praying for me as well. NO, I would NEVER substitute ONLY prayer for medical knowledge! That would be CRAZY!!!! I believe God gave us a brain and the sense to use it!
Believe me, I have met a great deal of Christians that were not exactly the "sharpest tool in the shed", however, I have met plenty of non-Christians that fit into the exact same category. I don't think any less of an atheist than I do anyone else. I don't think any differently about people of other religions than I do anyone else...UNLESS, that particular religion is a threat to society and our overall safety and well being. That includes cults as well as any radicals!
I certainly appreciate your insight, and to my knowledge, you (as well as other believers) are certainly allowed to post your thoughts on these types of forums, no?? That's what makes this whole process fun!
One thing and I don't mean to take this off topic... but you might be interested in how cults work. There's a bit of a feedback loop involved. Look it up. It's pretty neat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl
I do tend to notice on this board, that many christians, particularly the vocal fundamental practitioners have very little education or clarity. I notice major misspellings and syntax errors. So I tend to believe that the deeply fundamentals (on this board) are uneducated.
So, does this criteria equally apply to the non-Christians on this board who are guilty of major misspellings and syntax errors? It appears to me that all sides are equally guilty of possessing poor spelling and grammar skills--fundamentals, moderates, atheists, and others (religious or not).
By the way, analyzing the above quote alone, I do believe the pot is calling the kettle black.
My comment was that I tend to see fundamentals using bad spelling skills. I stick by it. There is currently one atheist who has no spelling skills. I've asked the person to use spell check.
My experience, and this is MY EXPERIENCE, on THIS BOARD, is that fundamentalists are bad spellers. So, if that is my experience, I think that they are uneducated or lazy.
I do find it humorous that you're offended by the spelling error post and not the posts about christians being stupid and/or having psychological problems.
I certainly appreciate your insight, and to my knowledge, you (as well as other believers) are certainly allowed to post your thoughts on these types of forums, no?? That's what makes this whole process fun!
One thing and I don't mean to take this off topic... but you might be interested in how cults work. There's a bit of a feedback loop involved. Look it up. It's pretty neat.
Ok, I have to admit I am guilty of misusing a word.
I SHOULD have said "occult". OOOOPS Ya know, devil worship.
As far as my statement about "radicals" I include radical Muslims (as in the ones responsible for terrorism ) and I even include the radicals such as the Fred Phelps family. Radical behavior or overzealousness in ANYTHING is dangerous!
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) my doctor was awesome! He was extremely intelligent and very kind. I was, of course, totally freaking out about the whole thing. Honestly, I thought I may never walk normally again. However, after surgery/recovery etc. he came in to talk to me and told me he would be praying for me. 
I guess you could say, I always felt that God was what I call the "infinite voyeur". 
