Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I find it funny that atheism is in the religion and spirituality section of this site.
I don't believe in leprechauns, so I'm not going to hang out on an Irish board to dismiss their beliefs.
An atheist cramming their religion down someone's throat is just as bad as fundamental Bible thumper.
First... atheism is NOT a religion. It's the antithesis of a religion.
And second... it takes a considerable amount of gall for Christians, who have destroyed entire cultures over the centuries, and who currently have hundreds of thousands of missionaries out in the field around the world, to accuse ANYONE ELSE of attempting to push their views down the throats of Christians. The bottom line is, that when the religious right decided they were going to use their numbers to politically push their religious beliefs on the rest of the country, Christian claims became fair game. The cat is out of the bag now, I am afraid. During the period that the Christian religious right has been seeking to effect political control over the country, the number of people in the US that consider themselves to be Christians has dropped from 90% to 70%, and the number of Americans that have no religious affiliation has been steadily growing at a rate of just about 1% per year this entire century.
The problem for Christians is that when Christian claims are subjected to the glaring light of actual facts and logic, Christian claims invariably fall apart like a cheap sweater. However, Christian claims happen to be written for all to see in the Bible, and what is written in the Bible cannot be altered. It can only be examined, contemplated, and then weighed against modern standards of reason and logic. What has been occurring is that Christian claims are now becoming widely dismissed as the unrealistic nonsense it has always been. The Bible says what it says, and a significant amount of what it says is insupportable superstitious nonsense. Which becomes apparent upon close inspection. Upon close examination Christianity is not believable which is becoming apparent to ever more people. I am afraid that there is very little that Christians can do to change that, because at this point it is too late.
I'm glad people argue for atheism or at least prove the Bible false(I was indoctrinated into a Christian sect). It helped me see where I was hung up. It's also a great way to watch critical thinking skills in action when a person has been taught emotional reasoning. I don't argue for atheism myself so much as against The Watchtower.
I was never indoctrinated into a christian sect, but let's just say I had some in my family that were.
What do you argue the most against the Watchtower?
From everything I've read, from what I can see, the "witnesses" seem to have more reasonable and logical views than many of the major christian sects, such as catholicism, and the many so-called protestant variations that still aren't sure whether or not they're catholic.
I was never indoctrinated into a christian sect, but let's just say I had some in my family that were.
What do you argue the most against the Watchtower?
From everything I've read, from what I can see, the "witnesses" seem to have more reasonable and logical views than many of the major christian sects, such as catholicism, and the many so-called protestant variations that still aren't sure whether or not they're catholic.
My main problem with The Watchtower is the level of control they exert over their members. The Watchtower controls every aspect of their lives and isolates them from anyone outside the group. Jehovah's Witnesses are to dedicate their whole mind, soul and lives to the advancement of the group. The Watchtower does this with an "us" vs "them" mindset" and fear based phobia indoctrination. Take a look at this thread:
My main problem with The Watchtower is the level of control they exert over their members. The Watchtower controls every aspect of their lives and isolates them from anyone outside the group. Jehovah's Witnesses are to dedicate their whole mind, soul and lives to the advancement of the group. The Watchtower does this with an "us" vs "them" mindset" and fear based phobia indoctrination. Take a look at this thread:
Here is a thread where a CO (Circuit Overseer...higher up) explains his story.
I have seen videos like the ones here. And I've heard similar stories from former members of a Witness group.
I've also talked to members who say their individual groups don't conform to those type of practices, nor do they approve of them in any manner.
I get the feeling that there are major problems going on within the sect, well, obviously. But this is such a slippery noodle, when it comes to individual's actions.
I was more curious as to what in particular about its doctrines, or written statements/philosophies, do you see as causing some of these types of scenes we are seeing in the videos.
I understand what I'm asking may be difficult to explain, so I'm not expecting the right answers. I agree that mind control is part of what's going on, but where exactly do you think it stems from?
EDIT Sorry, I think I may be getting off topic. Not trying to hijack this thread. I may start a new one for this particular question
Last edited by riggy_house; 08-21-2017 at 09:25 AM..
Reason: grammer and misspellling + EDIT
I have seen videos like the ones here. And I've heard similar stories from former members of a Witness group.
I've also talked to members who say their individual groups don't conform to those type of practices, nor do they approve of them in any manner.
I get the feeling that there are major problems going on within the sect, well, obviously. But this is such a slippery noodle, when it comes to individual's actions.
I was more curious as to what in particular about its doctrines, or written statements/philosophies, do you see as causing some of these types of scenes we are seeing in the videos.
I understand what I'm asking may be difficult to explain, so I'm not expecting the right answers. I agree that mind control is part of what's going on, but where exactly do you think it stems from?
That's the image they project to outsiders. On that thread an active Witness spoke up and said it's mostly a matter of family dynamic. On the last few pages I provided Watchtower material showing that it is a stated policy. I also provided a video of one of the many talks they give about shunning being a test of loyalty to Jehovah (who only uses the Watchtower to communicate to people). I will run a Google and link up another. There are some who refuse to shun but they are the exception. On the reddit link I provided you can see that the man went against protocal and told a family to call the police when their child was molested. It happens, even under the most sever of circumstances there are people who will buck the system. You can also see that he made it out partly because of his ability to buck the system.
As far as the doctrines go, these groups are never about doctrine. There are holes in their teachings especially around their end time predictions(607 & 1914 generation). I haven't been inside of a Kingdom Hall in 30 years so I wouldn't be good at getting down to the specifics. If you are interested in that you may want to visit that subreddit. I will tell you the one that astounds me. I'm 49 and grew up being told that the generation spoke of in Matt 24:34 was anyone who was old enough (It was determined at that time to be 10) in 1914 (when Christ took his heavenly throne) and was able to see the shift in the world would still be alive when Armageddon came. I wouldn't ever get into high school...wouldn't ever graduate... Over the years they dropped the 10 year old requirement and switched it to born 1914. Now the generation spoke of is anyone whose life overlaps with those alive in 1914. Their deep understanding of generation spoken of in Matt 24:34 is now 2 life spans (one started in 1914) that overlap each other to form one generation. Oh Come ON!
Umm. You might want to take another look at the ten commandments.
The first 4 at least are all about god being needy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
4 commandments about worshipping god? Just roll them all into one and make room for other stuff. Why is he so needy anyway and why would he even care about being worshipped? Creator of the entire universe needs reasurrance and flattery? Hmm.
Sorry but you did bring it up.
I think you may be misunderstanding who the commandments were for, and what their purpose was. They were written by a man for other people. They were deemed to be perfect commandments, not because God (entertaining the belief that God exists) is needy, but because those people needed to be taught proper respect- starting with their maker, then parents, and so on.
You say the commandments are "pretty obvious, aren't they", but could you be overlooking the fact that the people those commandments were written for existed in a far different environment than you've been raised in?
I'm assuming that you are from the U.S. and if correct, that means you have been raised in a Christian founded nation. From day one, you have been likely been indoctrinated to love your neighbor and forgive your enemies (hopefully, you weren't indoctrinated into a cult society where you were taught to cheat, steal, and do whatever you feel is necessary to make you feel better about living on this crazy planet).
The people the commandments were written for were without a moral compass, without a belief in a god that is good, and what was common sense to them included rape, murder, incest, adultery, theft, lying, manipulating others for selfish gain, etc. and so on.
Now we are seeing a movement away from the Christian founded beliefs that our nation once used as a base for its moral standards.
And so now, as our standards gravitate back to what we think of as good common sense, those commandments aren't so obvious anymore are they? With the the first 4 being especially confusing, right?
Would i commit adultery on my wife if i loved her?
Would i disobey my parents if i genuinely loved them?
Would i be loving someone if i lied to them?
The ten commandments are about loving others and honoring God.
If there was a God that created you and the whole world, i think he deserves to be honored.
Why would you have to love someone in order not to steal from them? To me the Christian claim that they love everyone, including those they have never even heard of water downs the entire concept of living giving it very little meaning. Plus folks like you post about how great Christianity is and that it is all about loving everyone however where can a person actually meet these Christians? Most of us are active against the negative actions of the dominant religion, the gays are abominations, science is wrong and that you need to be a Christian to be moral. If the 10 Commandments are all about loving your God, why the push to have them in public spaces if not to demonstrate dominance over non Christians. And if it is all about love why the allowing of owning other people?
And why instead of posting here are you not on the other forums spreading the message that they are suppose to be about love instead they are trying to use their religion as a weapon onto others?
And yes I have disobeyed my parents when I thought they were wrong. Obeying regardless is not a form of love.
The people the commandments were written for were without a moral compass, without a belief in a god that is good, and what was common sense to them included rape, murder, incest, adultery, theft, lying, manipulating others for selfish gain, etc. and so on.
Numbers 31:
[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam,
to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague
among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman
that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves.
And so the soldiers slaughtered everyone else without pity. Helpless men, women, little boys, babies... but kept the little girls for themselves. And this is the "moral compass" provided to them by God?
I think you may be misunderstanding who the commandments were for, and what their purpose was. They were written by a man for other people. They were deemed to be perfect commandments, not because God (entertaining the belief that God exists) is needy, but because those people needed to be taught proper respect- starting with their maker, then parents, and so on.
And I think you may be misunderstanding my post.
Quote:
You say the commandments are "pretty obvious, aren't they", but could you be overlooking the fact that the people those commandments were written for existed in a far different environment than you've been raised in?
I'm assuming that you are from the U.S. and if correct, that means you have been raised in a Christian founded nation. From day one, you have been likely been indoctrinated to love your neighbor and forgive your enemies (hopefully, you weren't indoctrinated into a cult society where you were taught to cheat, steal, and do whatever you feel is necessary to make you feel better about living on this crazy planet).
Your assumptions are wrong. I was raised in the UK. I only moved to the US 5 1/2 years ago.
I was raised, as is very common in the UK, in a lukewarm 'culturally Anglican' household. ie we only went to church for weddings and funerals and the odd Christmas carol service and never talked about religion at all at home. The only conversation I ever had with my parents was when I asked my mother if she believed in god, and she replied "I don't really know" - and that was that. Pretty sure both my parents were atheists or agnostic at the very least. My dad mocked Christian and particularly Catholic paraphenalia when he saw it, referring to it as 'stuff and nonsense' although they were publicly respectful of others who went to church.
My brother declared himself atheist at a very early age after watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos on TV. I married a lifelong atheist from an atheist household.
Quote:
The people the commandments were written for were without a moral compass, without a belief in a god that is good, and what was common sense to them included rape, murder, incest, adultery, theft, lying, manipulating others for selfish gain, etc. and so on.
Now we are seeing a movement away from the Christian founded beliefs that our nation once used as a base for its moral standards.
And so now, as our standards gravitate back to what we think of as good common sense, those commandments aren't so obvious anymore are they? With the the first 4 being especially confusing, right?
No, none of the commandments are confusing. They were written as you say by men - as was the entire bible, by people who understood practically nothing about the natural world. The bible was simply a way for men and women to make sense of the world around them, as it was 2000 years ago.
I have no idea how you read what you read into the words I typed to the OP, but perhaps you missed that I am an atheist who was talking to a Christian in a manner they might understand.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
