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If they will admit to that, I'll be happy to accept that any people who worked to abolish slavery were in fact Christians.
Just as Britain worked to abolish slavery while some others were happy to see it carry on. Especially as those who made money out of it.
The good and bad of humanity is just the way we are and really can't be used as an argument for or indeed against religion.
Indeed the argument that slavery in the Bible is 'the way humans were' is true. As is war, greed, using women as property and religious rules, dogma and practices, and is nothing other than what humans do. Unless they decide (on rational and ethical grounds) not to.
That's really the argument - not 'God approves of slavery', no more than 'God is evil', but there is no God (no Biblegod, anyway) and that's all human stuff we have to keep working on, not expecting Jesus to roll up and wave a magic wand.
LOL, you kind of have to accept it. It's historical fact that some Christians worked to abolish slavery.
I found my old book, "The Bible Tells Me So" that shows how the Bible was used for both sides of issues; slavery, of course, being one of them.
I'm also interested in the abolitionists, so perhaps that is why I tend to not focus as much on the people who defended slavery while ignoring those who did not. There is always a balance. It's easy from the vantage point of 150 years to point fingers and say, "Oh YEAH, those were BAD people and I certainly would not have been that way", but chances are that we might have been OK with slavery if we lived back then, or at least apathetic about it.
I understand that these churches may have good intentions and if they are going to invest in programs that help black Americans, then that can only be a positive thing.
I never understood when in the Bible someone did something against God, God would damn their future generations. It never made sense to me to curse someone who's ancestor hundreds of years prior did something against God. Each individual should be held accountable for their own actions.
If these progressive, throw money at the problem, initiatives like this worked, you'd think you'd see fewer signs of inequality in places like Minnesota, but it's actually quite the opposite. They have some of the highest levels of inequality for black people.
The churches can do what they want with their money, but my guess is that this is an attempt to appease certain groups of progressives rather than any true historic feelings of guilt. I'd rather hear that the church is investing in minority communities because they need the help and God wants us to help those in need, not because they feel bad for something from 200 years ago.
I understand that these churches may have good intentions and if they are going to invest in programs that help black Americans, then that can only be a positive thing.
I never understood when in the Bible someone did something against God, God would damn their future generations. It never made sense to me to curse someone who's ancestor hundreds of years prior did something against God. Each individual should be held accountable for their own actions.
If these progressive, throw money at the problem, initiatives like this worked, you'd think you'd see fewer signs of inequality in places like Minnesota, but it's actually quite the opposite. They have some of the highest levels of inequality for black people.
The churches can do what they want with their money, but my guess is that this is an attempt to appease certain groups of progressives rather than any true historic feelings of guilt.
So you're saying that church-going christians are being dishonest.
I understand that these churches may have good intentions and if they are going to invest in programs that help black Americans, then that can only be a positive thing.
I never understood when in the Bible someone did something against God, God would damn their future generations. It never made sense to me to curse someone who's ancestor hundreds of years prior did something against God. Each individual should be held accountable for their own actions.
If these progressive, throw money at the problem, initiatives like this worked, you'd think you'd see fewer signs of inequality in places like Minnesota, but it's actually quite the opposite. They have some of the highest levels of inequality for black people.
The churches can do what they want with their money, but my guess is that this is an attempt to appease certain groups of progressives rather than any true historic feelings of guilt. I'd rather hear that the church is investing in minority communities because they need the help and God wants us to help those in need, not because they feel bad for something from 200 years ago.
It doesn't have to be either one. I don't feel guilty for what happened historically as far as slavery goes, but I do feel that if there is a way to make things better NOW, we should, and if acknowledging and decrying the behavior of what an organization with which I am associated once did makes a step in that direction, why not? I don't get the "appeasing" thing. Appeasing whom for what reason? Most of the Christians in the Episcopal and similar progressive Christian churches actually feel that way about injustice, historical or contemporary.
It is virtue signaling which is common in deity based religions and in non-deity based pseudo-religions.
And tossing out cutesy trendy terms like "virtue signaling" rather than considering the possibility that the gesture is genuine just demonstrates a negative and sour attitude. Your assignation of a false characteristic to all religious groups is not that different from "all black people steal watermelons".
I appreciate phetaroi starting this conversation. It shows he has an open mind and isn't so ready to lump all Christians--or anyone else--into the same mindset and that he understands that humanity can demonstrate diversity in all aspects.
And tossing out cutesy trendy terms like "virtue signaling" rather than considering the possibility that the gesture is genuine just demonstrates a negative and sour attitude. Your assignation of a false characteristic to all religious groups is not that different from "all black people steal watermelons".
I appreciate phetaroi starting this conversation. It shows he has an open mind and isn't so ready to lump all Christians--or anyone else--into the same mindset and that he understands that humanity can demonstrate diversity in all aspects.
I accept I could be wrong about virtue signaling. Many genuinely want to be helpful. However, your straw man is totally uncalled for.
This is a big issue for Phetaroi and I firmly believe there are pseudo-religious undertones to his point of view. There are many points that are not to be challenged or discussed, the dogma must be accepted. Questions beyond a certain point are not accepted, this is a hallmark of many religions. Discussing that in this forum seems acceptable. Once a movement goes religious there is a recipe for disaster because reasoning goes out the door.
And tossing out cutesy trendy terms like "virtue signaling" rather than considering the possibility that the gesture is genuine just demonstrates a negative and sour attitude. Your assignation of a false characteristic to all religious groups is not that different from "all black people steal watermelons".
I appreciate phetaroi starting this conversation. It shows he has an open mind and isn't so ready to lump all Christians--or anyone else--into the same mindset and that he understands that humanity can demonstrate diversity in all aspects.
Thank you.
Your compliment gives me the opportunity to reiterate something I have said before, but probably needs to be said again.
Yes, I am a critic of the western religion. And most readers probably only see/hear the negatives I talk about. They do tend to overlook the compliments. I've spoken quite warmly about a methodist church in Colorado Springs, and while I haven't mentioned him, I was very impressed with their minister. I attended the church several times each year for 9 years, sometimes by the personal invitation of a neighbor, other times just because I wanted to. I was always made to feel most welcome, and other than having attendance taken, and one packet of brochures sent to my house, there was not a bit of pushiness in terms of proselytizing. In fact, when my neighbor would introduce me as a Buddhist, the typical response was, "Oh, that's interesting. We won't try to change you". And I think that many churches to good things, and often for the right reason. I think most christians are decent people, although lately quite a few have been lost in evangelistic politics...but I think we'll all get back on track.
I don't agree with everything in the New Testament, but it's a good book with many fine principles. And that's the key for me -- not the stories, but the principles. I started picking up that way of looking at things when I read the Jefferson Bible many years ago.
There are several denominations of christianity that quite impress me...not necessarily because my beliefs are in alignment, but several denominations seem more "enlightened", no pun intended by this Buddhist.
And I have quite a few close christian friends, a couple of whom even host bible studies.
But the positives I occasionally talk about are always overlooked.
However, there were times I had to stand up in front of my faculty and say that we administrators hadn't done a very good job on something, and I expected my teachers to be able to do the same. And I think it is very fair to ask churches and church-going christians to be leaders in human rights. Not just sit and pray for those rights, but to lead in giving those rights to all people.
^Amen to those two last lines. Slavery was probably prolonged by people of good will who spoke against it in the safety of their own homes or prayed for the end of slavery in their churches.
I understand that these churches may have good intentions and if they are going to invest in programs that help black Americans, then that can only be a positive thing.
<snip>
If these progressive, throw money at the problem, initiatives like this worked, you'd think you'd see fewer signs of inequality in places like Minnesota, but it's actually quite the opposite. They have some of the highest levels of inequality for black people.
The churches can do what they want with their money, but my guess is that this is an attempt to appease certain groups of progressives rather than any true historic feelings of guilt. I'd rather hear that the church is investing in minority communities because they need the help and God wants us to help those in need, not because they feel bad for something from 200 years ago.
I feel zero guilt for anything our ancestors did. I also feel no sense of guilt over the racist "White privilege" trope. I am tired of society promoting racism by constantly emphasizing race. The way to eliminate racism is to stop using or considering race at any time for ANY REASON!
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I feel zero guilt for anything our ancestors did. I also feel no sense of guilt over the racist "White privilege" trope. I am tired of society promoting racism by constantly emphasizing race. The way to eliminate racism is to stop using or considering race at any time for ANY REASON!
