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Several of us atheists have complained repeatedly about the racism committed by christian churches over the history of this nation, and we have always been told to drop it...that either it never really happened or it's over and done with and don't look back.
Well, apparently some churches are willing to look at the religious history of the United States and do something about it.
If they will admit to that, I'll be happy to accept that any people who worked to abolish slavery were in fact Christians.
Just as Britain worked to abolish slavery while some others were happy to see it carry on. Especially as those who made money out of it.
The good and bad of humanity is just the way we are and really can't be used as an argument for or indeed against religion.
Indeed the argument that slavery in the Bible is 'the way humans were' is true. As is war, greed, using women as property and religious rules, dogma and practices, and is nothing other than what humans do. Unless they decide (on rational and ethical grounds) not to.
That's really the argument - not 'God approves of slavery', no more than 'God is evil', but there is no God (no Biblegod, anyway) and that's all human stuff we have to keep working on, not expecting Jesus to roll up and wave a magic wand.
The denialism of racism goes far beyond churches. Indeed, denialism goes far beyond racism.
People don't like unpleasant history. They love the mythical stories of their religion/nation/tribe/etc. but they don't want to see the blemishes. And they're outraged when those blemishes are pointed out.
Several of us atheists have complained repeatedly about the racism committed by christian churches over the history of this nation, and we have always been told to drop it...that either it never really happened or it's over and done with and don't look back.
Well, apparently some churches are willing to look at the religious history of the United States and do something about it.
That the USA was racist is not news . Why do you say? "Well, apparently some churches are willing to look at the religious history of the United States and do something about it". The past cannot be changed. The idea of constantly relieving this past has become a religion.
The denialism of racism goes far beyond churches. Indeed, denialism goes far beyond racism.
People don't like unpleasant history. They love the mythical stories of their religion/nation/tribe/etc. but they don't want to see the blemishes. And they're outraged when those blemishes are pointed out.
Very much agree.
And this gets back to my view of the "cancel culture". I'm a particular fan of Thomas Jefferson. I visited Monticello a number of times, and on my last visit I noticed two things -- first, that they old terms they used (as I recall they simply called them "servants" (or something like that) during my earlier visits) had changed to "enslaved persons". Much more realistic. Also on that last visit, they didn't seem to be addressing the Jefferson-Sally Hemmings liaison, so I asked about it. The guide said that was actually the topic of the next stop on the tour, but she'd address my question immediately, and her response was that the foundation that owns Monticello now were convinced that Jefferson did, indeed, have a sexual relationship with Jefferson. And she pointed out -- at least back then -- that the Jefferson family was still not acknowledging the liason, but that they didn't own Monticello.
But here's what I think is important: There are very few people I know who are perfect people. An awfully lot of "good people" would be very embarrassed should aspects of their private lives be made public. And I'm not willing to simply say that people are all good or all bad, with perhaps a very few extreme exceptions. I can look at a Jefferson -- who was responsible to a great extent for our founding documents (which though flawed may be the best founding documents in world history), who was responsible for the concept behind the "Jefferson Bible", and how was influential in Virginia and the early nation to make much of what we later prospered under -- and still say that he was an imperfect man who -- at least in one part of his life -- did things can were morally reprehensible.
And the same goes for churches. The facts are the facts. Many churches literally preached slavery. But even those churches probably did other things that were good and positive. I can look at the whole of what a congregation or denomination did and see both good and bad. The mistake would be if we choose to look at only the good and forget the bad.
To those churches and denominations that are trying to right an old wrong -- good for you -- you are the leaders that christianity needs.
That the USA was racist is not news . Why do you say? "Well, apparently some churches are willing to look at the religious history of the United States and do something about it". The past cannot be changed. The idea of constantly relieving this past has become a religion.
Until the nation truly comes to grips with its past, and rights what wrongs it can, we cannot -- in good conscience -- move on with a clear conscience.
Until the nation truly comes to grips with its past, and rights what wrongs it can, we cannot -- in good conscience -- move on with a clear conscience.
That is pseudo-religion, you are preaching the gospel. The goal cannot be attained. John McWhorter is correct.
That is pseudo-religion, you are preaching the gospel. The goal cannot be attained. John McWhorter is correct.
What I am preaching is what the descendants of the slaves and Jim Crow have personally told to me.
What I am preaching is the history of experiences of two Black families (long past and recent past) personally shared with me about how slavery and Jim Crow affected MANY generations of African-Americans, as related by two principals I worked for.
What I am preaching is the relatively recent perspective of a Black college professor from Howard University.
What I am preaching is the story of struggle for Blacks as seen by Julian Bond, then president of the NAACP, in a very small group (3 people), 3 hour sit down meeting I had with him a couple of years before his death.
What I am preaching is what I learned about how the Black families I visited in one of the very poor neighborhoods that fed into our school. And those families felt very different about their place in our country than the white middle and upper class families our school also served.
What I am preaching is what I learned about how Black (and for that matter, Latino) kids often feel about the shake of the dice they get from our nation.
I'm guessing you're white and middle class. You're hardly one of the victims of inequality. And you don't seem to want to hear those other voices.
Some might ask what this has to do with religion. Well, go back to the old "Negro" spiritual songs. "O my lord, sometimes I feel like a motherless child; then I go down on my knees and pray". Unfortunately, the churches in the South were not hearing, or at least not acting on those prayers.
There are a lot of goals that cannot be obtained. I guess you're admitting that true equality in this nation cannot be attained. That doesn't mean you don't try.
"I guess this is just another lost cause, Mr. Paine. All you people don't know about lost causes. Mr. Paine does. He said once they were the only causes worth fighting for, and he fought for them once, for the only reason any man ever fights for them: Because of one plain simple rule: Love thy neighbor. And in this world today, full of hatred, a man who knows that one rule has a great trust. You know that rule, Mr. Paine. And I loved you for it just as my father did, and you know that you fight for the lost causes harder than for any others. Yes, you even die for them, like a man we both knew, Mr. Paine. You think I'm licked. You all think I'm licked. Well, I'm not licked, and I'm gonna stay right here and fight for this lost cause" -- "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington".
It's most important to listen to the voices that are least heard. If you want to call that a gospel...fine by me, because Love Thy Neighbor is one of the most important principles from the NT.
What I am preaching is what the descendants of the slaves and Jim Crow have personally told to me.
What I am preaching is the history of experiences of two Black families (long past and recent past) personally shared with me about how slavery and Jim Crow affected MANY generations of African-Americans, as related by two principals I worked for.
What I am preaching is the relatively recent perspective of a Black college professor from Howard University.
What I am preaching is the story of struggle for Blacks as seen by Julian Bond, then president of the NAACP, in a very small group (3 people), 3 hour sit down meeting I had with him a couple of years before his death.
What I am preaching is what I learned about how the Black families I visited in one of the very poor neighborhoods that fed into our school. And those families felt very different about their place in our country than the white middle and upper class families our school also served.
What I am preaching is what I learned about how Black (and for that matter, Latino) kids often feel about the shake of the dice they get from our nation.
I'm guessing you're white and middle class. You're hardly one of the victims of inequality. And you don't seem to want to hear those other voices.
Some might ask what this has to do with religion. Well, go back to the old "Negro" spiritual songs. "O my lord, sometimes I feel like a motherless child; then I go down on my knees and pray". Unfortunately, the churches in the South were not hearing, or at least not acting on those prayers.
There are a lot of goals that cannot be obtained. I guess you're admitting that true equality in this nation cannot be attained. That doesn't mean you don't try.
"I guess this is just another lost cause, Mr. Paine. All you people don't know about lost causes. Mr. Paine does. He said once they were the only causes worth fighting for, and he fought for them once, for the only reason any man ever fights for them: Because of one plain simple rule: Love thy neighbor. And in this world today, full of hatred, a man who knows that one rule has a great trust. You know that rule, Mr. Paine. And I loved you for it just as my father did, and you know that you fight for the lost causes harder than for any others. Yes, you even die for them, like a man we both knew, Mr. Paine. You think I'm licked. You all think I'm licked. Well, I'm not licked, and I'm gonna stay right here and fight for this lost cause" -- "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington".
It's most important to listen to the voices that are least heard. If you want to call that a gospel...fine by me, because Love Thy Neighbor is one of the most important principles from the NT.
The story of racism in America is horrendous. Everybody I know confirms this, there is no doubt about the massive injustice. America has done a tremendous job in trying to repair the past and it continues to this day. It may very well take a few more generations.
You remind me of the Evangelical preacher that preaches the same sermon to the congregation over and over agin. A sermon they have heard a billion times but a sermon that brings fellowship and empowerment to those in the audience. A sermon that brings joy in a very strange sense. A sermon that helps explain how nasty the world can be. This is a pseudo-religion. And unlike Christianity it is based on true events. This makes the pseudo-religion much more powerful and it certainly has a hypnotic effect on the followers.
This also reminds me of the man that was once unfaithful to his wife and has asked for forgiveness. However, the wife remains in perennial grievance mode and there is nothing the husband can do to make it better . And perhaps there is nothing he can do. Infidelity can be a mortal wound for a marriage just as slavery was a terrible wound for this nation. If the marriage is to survive we need a new paradigm.
Last edited by Julian658; 12-14-2020 at 12:04 PM..
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