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So if I wrote a thread about atheist Apologetics, inspired by a word Mystic said, who, BTW is one of my faves here, because I am not threatened by someone having a different belief than I do, I would start off referencing that a belief in God or gods has likely been part of the human experience for as long as humans have had self awareness. I would reference the book Evolution of God by Wright, 2009, which references spirit worship and the presence of dreams. While I am certain that probably everyone on here has had a dream at some time about a deceased person, remember that 100,000 years ago some primitive man would have had a dream, perhaps about a deceased tribal member, and not understanding neurology or psychology, could have easily taken the dream to mean that a spirit of this person was trying to contact him. That could have helped foster a belief in an afterlife.
Of course we know belief in afterlife probably existed based on burial tradition of both Neanderthals and Cro-magnons
Not to mentioned that use of hallucinogens, from whatever mushroom some hunter gatherer ate to the Oracle at Delphi, which would present hallucinations that were again, due to lack of knowledge about biology or pharmacology, would be attributed to some other-worldly or Divine presence.
Not to mention the entire Christian writings of Paul, based on hallucinations as a result of a focal seizure disorder, which was not understood by the limited knowledge of neurology by Roman physicians.
SO the tradition of belief in spirits, gods, God, goes back as long as humanity, likely.
But today, educated people, schooled in science and medicine, know that dreams are a subconscious sensory/cognitive experience fabricated by the b human brain, not by outside entities. We know that certain people who suffer from certain seizures, will see and hear certain things, but again, this is fabrication of the human mind, not divine intervention. And we know that certain substances, when ingested, will lead to altered states of consciousness, sometimes with hallucinations. But we understand the bio chemistry of these substances and how they alter the chemicals in the brain. (The Cat is fond of one in particular when he visits Colorado)
SO to talk about Atheist Apologetics, we must first address the how and why of the Widespread attribution of events to a God or the gods, and we must see that for most people, the desire and belief in gods, either through personal experience or learned conditioning, is widespread throughout human evolution.
That does not mean that any such thing exists, but it does mean that many people believe or want to believe that it does exist.
SO taking the Apologetic nature of Atheism is going to be a challenge, and will require science, logic and reason. With that, we can open a thread to discuss the rational behind Atheism and the reason why cat's like myself identify with it.
Now...because you stuck with me this far......
To close, I leave you all with a bit of humor, courtesy of Matt Groening and FOX TV
That is 2 topics, why people believe in gods and the rational behind atheism. There is a third topic behind both of these, what do people mean by gods?
That is 2 topics, why people believe in gods and the rational behind atheism. There is a third topic behind both of these, what do people mean by gods?
That is 2 topics, why people believe in gods and the rational behind atheism. There is a third topic behind both of these, what do people mean by gods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
And for Mystic, What is Reality.
The real question (shorn of all the nonsense about the semantics of BELIEFS) is about what our Reality IS or IS NOT. Atheism says it is NOT God. Theism says it IS God. Science is impotent to resolve the two claims.
well...it looks like we now have a Dedicated Mystic Thread.
And I will say only this, prompted by Nana's post rather than Mystics':
It doesn't matter what reality is, if matter/energy and how it works by natural unplanned laws (people wouldn't need those caveats were it not for tinkering with semantics) isn't good enough. It is what people think of as natural and not a god unless there is a planning intelligence other than human (or, plausibly, alien) in the cosmos.
Until that intelligence is demonstrated, there is no reason to call 'nature' a god or "god" let alone "God".
Because people think of an intelligent creator when they see the term especially with a capital 'G'.
Plausibility does not validate anything without evidence for. In the absence of which we Don't Know and logic mandates that you don't believe what you don't know. 'Know' of course raisin the 'how do we know what we know?' and the answer - getting to atheist apologetics is that science has the track record and religious claims doesn't, and even philosophy (which is not what Mystic does, and cannot since even basic logic is inverted) - is that science explains a lot of what was once 'gaps for God' and which have often closed.
We only have cosmic origins, Abiogenesis and consciousness. Plausibility is with Abiogensis, not creation. I reckon consciousness being evolved rather than created is more plausible, because of the evidence of animal consciousness evolving along with the critters.
And I would argue that Cosmic origins is a bit more plausible with a 'something from next to nothing' than appealing to a Will, direction and intent with no origin of its' own. I'll concede that an evolving reasoning and planning matter/energy is not implausible, which is why that is the best case that theism has. But it isn't proven, and that's the burden of proof falling on the theist shoulders.
I'll make it simple because I can write Mystic's response already (aside from the block caps and underlinings)
Nobody has shown an intelligence directing the workings of anything other than humans and animals, in part at least (1) and so until that is done, the default is no intelligence in matter - no 'God'. No matter what the term means to Mystic and his acolytes, we cannot call Everything God, or those who believe in religious personal gods will be tempted to misuse the term.
No copyright. Anyone can use this to debunk any of the repetitions of Mystic's Pet Theory.
And now I'm (I swear ) Out .
(1) there has to be a cut -off and the cut comes somewhere around lugworms and mayflies. So the attempt to make out that crystals growing in dishes in science class is intelligent matter won't wash.
well...it looks like we now have a Dedicated Mystic Thread.
And I will say only this, prompted by Nana's post rather than Mystics':
Opps ... forgot ... nipped for space ...
so what? This is a forum about beliefs. He is here and we have to deal with it, The logical way, as you are so fond bragging on about atheist, is to just admit his belief is plausible, based on strength of evidence that is, and move on.
There is absolutely no reason for the average atheist to have to fight mystic's claim every single step of the way. Its just has to much science weight behind it.
Besides, who cares if he is right. It way better than most beliefs. I am at lost as to why you have to fight tit so hard.
So that aside, let's look again at where this goes in terms of Atheist Apologetics. We have lots of things we cannot fully explain, but that does not mean that some "Diety" somewhere is controlling everything.
When I took a science class in school, all those years ago, nothing was known about Cloning, DNA Mapping, not to mention the fact taht top and Bottom quarks had not been observed or demonstrated or a even imagined fully ! So what were we to do? Go home, and have ignorant parents and church members say "Oh Science is all wrong The Bible is all right" Well, over the years, we have determined and discovered differently> The Bible is not "all right, " in fact, it is not even close. And Science, through methods of demonstrating experimenting and proving, is pretty much right on eventually....
one think we did prove: Prayer does not work. Multiple studies, experiments and different setups has proven, inconclusively, that prayer does not affect the outcome of any future event.
(Guess Jesus got that one wrong too)
Anyway, going back to Apologetics, the Atheist stands to attach belief to that which can be predicted through postulation and experimentation, without using "God" as an explanation for something which is unknown.
I'd love to see my son break that dark matter challenge and win the Noble prize. Are we to say "Maybe Dark Matter is GOd?" no We say that dark matter likely exists and likely causes a dark halo in a collider, but so far, we have not the technology to observe or prove it. And so what if it does not exist? If science points to the non-existence of it, then we will move on.
And if God does not exist? Well, most of the known universe points to the non-existence of God, we have no evidence whatsoever for the existence of God, but religious people will continue to believe and worship such anyway.
so what? This is a forum about beliefs. He is here and we have to deal with it, The logical way, as you are so fond bragging on about atheist, is to just admit his belief is plausible, based on strength of evidence that is, and move on.
There is absolutely no reason for the average atheist to have to fight mystic's claim every single step of the way. Its just has to much science weight behind it.
Besides, who cares if he is right. It way better than most beliefs. I am at lost as to why you have to fight tit so hard.
Because anyone who posts their views, beliefs and opinions here is proffering a claim, and if they get called on it, they have no basis for complaint.
Nobody minds or cares what Mystic (or you) believes. But three AA threads (at least) have been derailed and spammed by you and Mystic. What is worse it has been done many times before. And we get the same thing again and again.
And now I really am out. I've got a pet thread of my own to bump up.
Because anyone who posts their views, beliefs and opinions here is proffering a claim, and if they get called on it, they have no basis for complaint.
Nobody minds or cares what Mystic (or you) believes. But three AA threads (at least) have been derailed and spammed by you and Mystic. What is worse it has been done many times before. And we get the same thing again and again.
And now I really am out. I've got a pet thread of my own to bump up.
Then you have you no reason to complain about him. Your type of atheism has so many hole sin it you have to resort to tactics other than squaring off with just evidence. As you say "that kind of evidence doesn't get us anywhere".
Exactly where are you trying to get, trans? That plausible beliefs, in your view, should be stopped?
So if I wrote a thread about atheist Apologetics, inspired by a word Mystic said, who, BTW is one of my faves here, because I am not threatened by someone having a different belief than I do, I would start off referencing that a belief in God or gods has likely been part of the human experience for as long as humans have had self awareness. I would reference the book Evolution of God by Wright, 2009, which references spirit worship and the presence of dreams. While I am certain that probably everyone on here has had a dream at some time about a deceased person, remember that 100,000 years ago some primitive man would have had a dream, perhaps about a deceased tribal member, and not understanding neurology or psychology, could have easily taken the dream to mean that a spirit of this person was trying to contact him. That could have helped foster a belief in an afterlife.
Of course we know belief in afterlife probably existed based on burial tradition of both Neanderthals and Cro-magnons
This is an excellent perspective. I have been telling forum members that tribalism and believing in deities was a huge component of human evolution. And yet the rookie atheists get off on making fun of allegoric bible passages or put down the role on Christianity in Western Civilization. Your average Atheists is not an atheist, they are simply anti-religion types.
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well...it looks like we now have a Dedicated Mystic Thread.
) Out .
of my own to bump up.
