Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Because we are not allowed to discuss politics here I'm just going to talk about the generic problem of garden variety hatred and bigotry masquerading as Christianity. We'll leave aside whether it's a hard masquerade to pull off *haff* *kaff*. I will say that to their credit, the local "community and church leaders" told this road show it was "not welcome" but then not to their credit, some church was found to host it.
The impetus for this is Michael Flynn's ReAwaken tour, which recently passed not all that far from me here in upstate New York.
Per the article, at these rallies people are being whipped into an us-vs-them frenzy demonizing government officials, Democrats, homosexuals, pedophiles (yes in the same breath) and just generally telling people they are under full-on attack from the different, the undesirable, the disagreeable, the Other.
Religious imagery abounds. People are being baptized into the movement.
There were 3,000 in attendance in Batavia NY, pop. 15,000 and the "only city in Gennesee County" in NW NY state, per Wikipedia. That seems like a pretty good extremist turnout for such a rural area, but IDK what kind of geographic area they were drawing from. It's hard to gauge how influential this is, but 61% of Republicans favor "declaring America a Christian nation". Even that is hard to assess because "Christian nation" means different things to different people. To the true nutters, it means a Christian theocracy of the fundamentalist flavor. To some it just means Christianity should be the apex religion and the default and America should not be an uncomfortable place for fundamentalists.
What concerns me is the degree to which these formerly fringe ideas have come to have an outsize influence relative to their actual size -- but now even the actual size is getting pretty big. If there's anything that will bring down democracy in this country, ironically, it is this kind of influence, which leads to extreme nationalism and fascism, every time -- if you bother to be a student of history, anyway.
This is the kind of thing that spurs me to oppose so much of fundamentalist "thinking". I don't really care if fundamentalists think the Bible is inerrant and the earth is 6,000 years old ... except that the same (lack of) reasoning makes people vulnerable to execrable hucksters like Flynn, and it makes them pretty much incapable of a 'live and let live" ethos anyway.
The first picture with the woman being baptized brought back a post I saw a while back called "The 5 Love Languages". They are affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. That picture represents at least four. Depending on what one considers quality time, perhaps all five are being represented. Love is not a fringe concept. People seek it, yet, it is the one thing that is not stated so explicitly in churches. Instead, it is indirectly addressed through the gathering together for God and what he wants. And once a person thinks they are speaking for God, fringe ideas are possible and the need for love can move mountains.
The first picture with the woman being baptized brought back a post I saw a while back called "The 5 Love Languages". They are affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. That picture represents at least four. Depending on what one considers quality time, perhaps all five are being represented. Love is not a fringe concept. People seek it, yet, it is the one thing that is not stated so explicitly in churches. Instead, it is indirectly addressed through the gathering together for God and what he wants. And once a person thinks they are speaking for God, fringe ideas are possible and the need for love can move mountains.
Sure, baptism is a belonging ritual and a potent symbol. The human mind deals at its most primal level in symbols, not thoughts, as is commonly assumed. This symbol was chosen for a reason. Psychologically, it can be a cathartic experience of initiation.
These kinds of meetings also convey belonging to a great and important cause: the cause of saving one's society from corrupting influences (them there gays and pedophiles and Democrats, lol). Particularly if you are poor, and feel you have no influence or status or importance or hope of "making a difference", offering you membership in an elite company of warriors is profoundly attractive. It's also profoundly abusive, rather like promising a child lots of candy when you actually intend to violate them or just use them for some ulterior purpose and then discard them. The same people stirring up these poor people have a very poor track record of actually loving on poor people. I don't seriously think these people are going to be made wealthy and influential by their involvement in this movement, and any moral victory they think they will contribute to will be short-lived and illusory. This kind of thing can only lead to fascistic / authoritarian oppression of someone -- likely, everyone.
Because we are not allowed to discuss politics here I'm just going to talk about the generic problem of garden variety hatred and bigotry masquerading as Christianity. We'll leave aside whether it's a hard masquerade to pull off *haff* *kaff*. I will say that to their credit, the local "community and church leaders" told this road show it was "not welcome" but then not to their credit, some church was found to host it.
The impetus for this is Michael Flynn's ReAwaken tour, which recently passed not all that far from me here in upstate New York.
Per the article, at these rallies people are being whipped into an us-vs-them frenzy demonizing government officials, Democrats, homosexuals, pedophiles (yes in the same breath) and just generally telling people they are under full-on attack from the different, the undesirable, the disagreeable, the Other.
Religious imagery abounds. People are being baptized into the movement.
There were 3,000 in attendance in Batavia NY, pop. 15,000 and the "only city in Gennesee County" in NW NY state, per Wikipedia. That seems like a pretty good extremist turnout for such a rural area, but IDK what kind of geographic area they were drawing from. It's hard to gauge how influential this is, but 61% of Republicans favor "declaring America a Christian nation". Even that is hard to assess because "Christian nation" means different things to different people. To the true nutters, it means a Christian theocracy of the fundamentalist flavor. To some it just means Christianity should be the apex religion and the default and America should not be an uncomfortable place for fundamentalists.
What concerns me is the degree to which these formerly fringe ideas have come to have an outsize influence relative to their actual size -- but now even the actual size is getting pretty big. If there's anything that will bring down democracy in this country, ironically, it is this kind of influence, which leads to extreme nationalism and fascism, every time -- if you bother to be a student of history, anyway.
This is the kind of thing that spurs me to oppose so much of fundamentalist "thinking". I don't really care if fundamentalists think the Bible is inerrant and the earth is 6,000 years old ... except that the same (lack of) reasoning makes people vulnerable to execrable hucksters like Flynn, and it makes them pretty much incapable of a 'live and let live" ethos anyway.
Couldn't agree more Mordant, I haven't had a chance to look at the link but I just wanted to say that I'm riding the fence now on most of what you said, I can only deal with one brain-washing incident at a time. But I'm working on it and I think the best thing any of us can do is research these people and choose whoever is up to the task, and forget the party.
It is all about the fundamentalists isn't it? The ones who scream and whine and cry the loudest have a lot of followers or sheeple, whatever you want to call them. "Makes them pretty much incapable of a live and let live ethos". Is that ever the truth. Looking at the link now. Have to type while I have it in my brain lol.
LOL it's so sad and seriously disturbing images for certain. The "laying of hands" on that poor little boy brings back such fond memories. I bet there was some speaking in tongues going on too.
Sure, baptism is a belonging ritual and a potent symbol. The human mind deals at its most primal level in symbols, not thoughts, as is commonly assumed. This symbol was chosen for a reason. Psychologically, it can be a cathartic experience of initiation.
These kinds of meetings also convey belonging to a great and important cause: the cause of saving one's society from corrupting influences (them there gays and pedophiles and Democrats, lol). Particularly if you are poor, and feel you have no influence or status or importance or hope of "making a difference", offering you membership in an elite company of warriors is profoundly attractive. It's also profoundly abusive, rather like promising a child lots of candy when you actually intend to violate them or just use them for some ulterior purpose and then discard them. The same people stirring up these poor people have a very poor track record of actually loving on poor people. I don't seriously think these people are going to be made wealthy and influential by their involvement in this movement, and any moral victory they think they will contribute to will be short-lived and illusory. This kind of thing can only lead to fascistic / authoritarian oppression of someone -- likely, everyone.
Good point about the symbolic nature of the baptism ritual. I will say that the human mind assigns meaning (thoughts) to symbols, but you are specific about it happening at the primal level. I haven't researched that particular topic, but would say that thoughts occur there as well, just not independently of symbols. There is a relationship. The baptism has the added benefit of touching even if it is just for a moment.
Independence was pushed in my county which was in a very conservative area with high religious identification. There was no expectation that a single person will change your life and nobody should expect such a thing. At least that is what I was told. What settled around us was a coldness and a distance that I think leaves people wanting for something that can't be explicitly stated. Belonging. Touching. Things you discover in books or by watching others in a different place. Things not meant to be counted on.
Then these guys swoop in keeping a safe distance, saying what wants to be heard, and leaving with what they came for. There is nothing suspicious about any of this in the land of pull-yourself-from-your-bootstraps where we don't explicitly admit we need other people. Well, maybe we need them just for a moment.
I hope I am right and you are wrong that we won't come to that point of oppression of everyone. These "warriors" are free to promote themselves just like everyone else so there will be a competition of ideas. There won't be an audience at every door step and I don't think that is part of their plan. It would be too much work.
Good point about the symbolic nature of the baptism ritual. I will say that the human mind assigns meaning (thoughts) to symbols, but you are specific about it happening at the primal level. I haven't researched that particular topic, but would say that thoughts occur there as well, just not independently of symbols. There is a relationship. The baptism has the added benefit of touching even if it is just for a moment.
Independence was pushed in my county which was in a very conservative area with high religious identification. There was no expectation that a single person will change your life and nobody should expect such a thing. At least that is what I was told. What settled around us was a coldness and a distance that I think leaves people wanting for something that can't be explicitly stated. Belonging. Touching. Things you discover in books or by watching others in a different place. Things not meant to be counted on.
Then these guys swoop in keeping a safe distance, saying what wants to be heard, and leaving with what they came for. There is nothing suspicious about any of this in the land of pull-yourself-from-your-bootstraps where we don't explicitly admit we need other people. Well, maybe we need them just for a moment.
I hope I am right and you are wrong that we won't come to that point of oppression of everyone. These "warriors" are free to promote themselves just like everyone else so there will be a competition of ideas. There won't be an audience at every door step and I don't think that is part of their plan. It would be too much work.
Anyway, that's my momentary armchair analysis.
Yes I think it's correct that thoughts exist associated with the symbols, but the symbolic drives the thoughts much of the time, rather than the inverse. One can learn to overcome that to a degree, but I think Jung was essentially correct about the mind and symbols.
I don't see this particular ideology as competing fairly in the marketplace of ideas because it is not a coherent belief system. How do you counter or compete with asserted nonsense? If enough people allow themselves to be stirred up around imagery of the Hated Other and in-group belonging to facilitate the systematic de-humanization of the Other, then you have fascism, enabled by a significant part of the population and rationalized by the rest. And the problem is that the economic situation most of the world is now in, where wealth inequality is destroying the middle class and its incentives, many more people are willing to tolerate fascism if they believe its attractive promises to Do Something and Fix Things.
Yeah, I hope I'm wrong too. I don't even know for sure how much "less worse" this would be without the influence of fundamentalist Christianity in this country. It is hard to tell anymore, intertwined as religion and politics and public policy are in this country, how much of this is to even be laid at fundamentalism's doorstep, or religion's doorstep more generally, or if religion is just a useful fool in the mix. It can't possibly be helping though. In my observation, I don't see "mainstream" Christianity really rising to the occasion here and speaking up as they could and arguably should. This is a pattern that's been seen in history before, too.
Yes I think it's correct that thoughts exist associated with the symbols, but the symbolic drives the thoughts much of the time, rather than the inverse. One can learn to overcome that to a degree, but I think Jung was essentially correct about the mind and symbols.
I don't see this particular ideology as competing fairly in the marketplace of ideas because it is not a coherent belief system. How do you counter or compete with asserted nonsense? If enough people allow themselves to be stirred up around imagery of the Hated Other and in-group belonging to facilitate the systematic de-humanization of the Other, then you have fascism, enabled by a significant part of the population and rationalized by the rest. And the problem is that the economic situation most of the world is now in, where wealth inequality is destroying the middle class and its incentives, many more people are willing to tolerate fascism if they believe its attractive promises to Do Something and Fix Things.
Yeah, I hope I'm wrong too. I don't even know for sure how much "less worse" this would be without the influence of fundamentalist Christianity in this country. It is hard to tell anymore, intertwined as religion and politics and public policy are in this country, how much of this is to even be laid at fundamentalism's doorstep, or religion's doorstep more generally, or if religion is just a useful fool in the mix. It can't possibly be helping though. In my observation, I don't see "mainstream" Christianity really rising to the occasion here and speaking up as they could and arguably should. This is a pattern that's been seen in history before, too.
How do you counter or compete with asserted nonsense? The counter already exists - the freedom to make your own assertions.
Mainstream Christianity really doesn't have to rise to the occasion other than to show up at the voting polls. They can also place their children in schools that teach and practice tolerance. And they will even if they are out there chanting that the ideas have been placed in their heads by the schools. Any problems perceived in the country have come from mainstream Christians; I mean, we've been told they are the majority after all. How could a little atheist like me even have influence? I've never been explicit about it and during my transition from Christianity to nothing, I really didn't behave differently. I actually became more mainstream.
Even though they blame democrats and atheists, it is their own family, friends, and neighbors that challenge "the way things should be." Don't believe in homosexuality? Better watch out because your children may be gay. I've been through it. Had friends complain to me about their nieces coming out as bisexual. After venting that it was against God, they still decided to love their family. They certainly don't want them harassed or hurt in school. I still think that whole "I can reprimand my child, but you can't" holds true and extremists will have to toe the line.
How do you counter or compete with asserted nonsense? The counter already exists - the freedom to make your own assertions.
Mainstream Christianity really doesn't have to rise to the occasion other than to show up at the voting polls. They can also place their children in schools that teach and practice tolerance. And they will even if they are out there chanting that the ideas have been placed in their heads by the schools. Any problems perceived in the country have come from mainstream Christians; I mean, we've been told they are the majority after all. How could a little atheist like me even have influence? I've never been explicit about it and during my transition from Christianity to nothing, I really didn't behave differently. I actually became more mainstream.
Even though they blame democrats and atheists, it is their own family, friends, and neighbors that challenge "the way things should be." Don't believe in homosexuality? Better watch out because your children may be gay. I've been through it. Had friends complain to me about their nieces coming out as bisexual. After venting that it was against God, they still decided to love their family. They certainly don't want them harassed or hurt in school. I still think that whole "I can reprimand my child, but you can't" holds true and extremists will have to toe the line.
That's the counter.
Cant rep you again. Very well argued posts, enjoyed reading them.
How do you counter or compete with asserted nonsense? The counter already exists - the freedom to make your own assertions.
Mainstream Christianity really doesn't have to rise to the occasion other than to show up at the voting polls. They can also place their children in schools that teach and practice tolerance. And they will even if they are out there chanting that the ideas have been placed in their heads by the schools. Any problems perceived in the country have come from mainstream Christians; I mean, we've been told they are the majority after all. How could a little atheist like me even have influence? I've never been explicit about it and during my transition from Christianity to nothing, I really didn't behave differently. I actually became more mainstream.
Even though they blame democrats and atheists, it is their own family, friends, and neighbors that challenge "the way things should be." Don't believe in homosexuality? Better watch out because your children may be gay. I've been through it. Had friends complain to me about their nieces coming out as bisexual. After venting that it was against God, they still decided to love their family. They certainly don't want them harassed or hurt in school. I still think that whole "I can reprimand my child, but you can't" holds true and extremists will have to toe the line.
That's the counter.
What one can theoretically do and what one can effectively / meaningfully do aren't always the same thing. Sure, I can make stuff up, tit for tat. I can even assert things I can evidence. It won't make any difference to these folks.
Once people decide in sufficient numbers that "anything goes" and evidence and reason don't matter, AND you have more moderate and sensible people in the same ideology zipping their lips about it, AND the "anything goes" crowd is able to marginalize and suppress various voices of reason (the subversion of the NIH and the CDC to political expedience regarding pandemics is a great example) then we are just going down a self-reinforcing path to collapse and hoping we come out the other side alive. These kinds of trends are unsustainable long-term and therefore self-limiting, but that doesn't mean huge numbers, probably millions, possibly billions, of people, won't suffer terribly in the meantime. It typically takes a generation or so to re-normalize after the rise and collapse of fascistic ideologies, but then lasting multigenerational damage is also done and can't be undone.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
