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First of all I think being respectful to everyone in here should just be a given, so the last part of what you said is rude and disrespectful. You could have simply asked your 3 questions but the last part rubbed me the wrong way. Athiests, Theists, individuals, societies, worlds, galactic civilizations should all codify this BE RESPECTFUL to other living things.
I'll engage in discussion with civil posters and that comment was unnecessary and rude. Have a nice day.
I would change the text color as red is for moderators.
That does not refute the argument. It is is irrelevant if we do not know why a god is unable, the fact that it is unable would mean it is not omnipotent.
It doesn't have to refute the argument. Why is it irrelevant to us if god chooses not to vanish evil in our existence? It could be entirely relevant to our own journey. Why would someone choose to be rude and disrespectful for no reason for example. I don't see the logic in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
If there is a reason that a god must allow evil, then is it actually able to stop evil? And pointing to some unknown possible reason (that for some unknown reason no one has been able to think of) also does not get you out of answering the point that if a god is able, but not willing, then that is not a good god.
Let's make the assumption he exists and he can eradicate evil and chooses not to. Would you offended by that? As i've been saying, god doesn't owe us only allowing goodness in our lives. Perhaps there is a place like this and we have not reached that yet. Perhaps this is all for his entertainment. If he existed would you require him to be only 'good'
Is there a reason natural processes allow evil and good? Does this make the universe evil? Perhaps for the same reason(s), god permits it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
If it was benevolent, why would it allow malice?
Why not? Perhaps evil and malice are necessary as part of the journey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
An evil god is one possibility. So is an ignorant god. So is no god at all.
yes he may not be 'all good' as portrayed, expected and wanted by some.
Sure, i've mentioned that there may be no god at all or if there is, we don't have him figured out and he wants it that way.
First of all I think being respectful to everyone in here should just be a given, so the last part of what you said is rude and disrespectful. You could have simply asked your 3 questions but the last part rubbed me the wrong way. Athiests, Theists, individuals, societies, worlds, galactic civilizations should all codify this BE RESPECTFUL to other living things.
Alas, I can't force civility, but I can choose to engage in discussion with civil posters and that comment was unnecessary, rude and speaks more about you far more than providing proof that I don't know what i'm talking about. Have a nice day.
fusion2. Please stay, I love the way you think and write. We could use a lot more of that in these forums.
Let's make the assumption he exists and he can eradicate evil and chooses not to. Would you offended by that? As i've been saying, god doesn't owe us only allowing goodness in our lives. Perhaps there is a place like this and we have not reached that yet. Perhaps this is all for his entertainment. If he existed would you require him to be only 'good'
How I feel about what any gods could do is irrelevant, I am just going through the logic of the argument. It is a great exercise to do in my third language.
And one point I am embarrassed to have missed, there can be no unexplained reason why an omnipotent god must allow evil, because that would mean it was not omnipotent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Is there a reason natural processes allow evil and good? Does this make the universe evil? Perhaps for the same reason(s), god permits it.
Why not? Perhaps evil and malice are necessary as part of the journey.
Evil and good are human constructs, natural processes are just properties and behaviors of existence. We evolved to survive by doing things considered evil (hurting animals so we could eat them) or good (working together and sharing hunted food).
I do not believe in a spiritual journey, only on goals we logically can achieve, such as equal rights to work, health and happiness. Some Daoists recognize this as the spiritual goal, but my Greek ancestors argued for this philosophically, not spiritually.
First of all I think being respectful to everyone in here should just be a given, so the last part of what you said is rude and disrespectful. You could have simply asked your 3 questions but the last part rubbed me the wrong way. Athiests, Theists, individuals, societies, worlds, galactic civilizations should all codify this BE RESPECTFUL to other living things.
Alas, I can't force civility, but I can choose to engage in discussion with civil posters and that comment was unnecessary, rude and speaks more about you far more than providing proof that I don't know what i'm talking about. Have a nice day.
Maybe he doesn't, maybe its just 'mysterious' to us. Humor me - So if he exists, would it be a requirement for him to make it obvious? Would it be a requirement that he is all loving and caring only? Would he be required to provide scientific evidence that satisfies us? Perhaps he decided that the evidence you see is the physical universe that holds no clues of his existence. The clues are more subtle and more individual.
I'm just operating from the framework that he exists. If he does not than that is obviously a moot point.
No none of that is required. However if others claim that their God is good or fair and just and all powerful then those people making those claims are then using God works in mysterious ways to excuse all examples that their God is good, fair and just or all powerful. If any God's do exist they can be whatever they want to be however that should not prevent us from addressing those claims made by people. We are not addressing their God. Just because some make claims about their God does not mean we cannot address those claims. If a person claims that praying to their God at seventeen after the hour will make them a billionaire that claim can be challenged by theists and Atheists alike.
I'm not looking for societal 'consensus' to address my questions on god(s) or spirituality. Neither am I looking for it in here. It is my own journey. I've made it clear in my posts I am not religious, nor do I have any notions on what I want god to be if it or they exists. I'm not looking to present 'facts' or 'proof' of god because I can't and I don't think anyone can. Those are not really worthy of discussion until people have actual proof which they do not have. It does not however invalid a discussion on concepts, ideas, feelings, experiences in a respectful manner.
So if you think i'm trying to convince anyone who doesn't believe in god to believe that is not where i'm coming from. I'm simply sharing thoughts ideas, I thought with people who can detach themselves from lacing their comments disrespectfully (not you but some in here are like that) on both sides.
If god exists and it was obvious he did, then we'd have no challenge in this. We'd simply be born into an existence whereby it was obvious and that is perhaps not what he would want. He would want us to question this because that is part of the journey. I use the term he loosely here as I have no idea if or what he is. This isn't someone I can prove - it is a notion and it goes beyond the realm of logic and is highly personal.
Is that something for someone to hinge their life upon. No - it is up to the individual person but for someone like Mystic and others, the experience they have had (myself included), was sufficient enough. For him it was to believe. For me it was to go from not believing to being on the fence, which apparently for some in here makes you confused and 'not knowing what you're talking about' - Well, as a species the universe in all its natural perfection, didn't just make us logical beings.
Nor do I expect consensus, never going to happen in this species.
I think everything you've stated above is quite rational, and carefully considered, there is logic to it.
It makes perfect sense for people to allow for their individual experiences to have a bearing upon their processing. In fact, I'd suggest, it's fundamental to all of our evaluation and decision making processes. That said, it would also be reasonable for other's not sharing the same experiences to assess differently, and even to challenge the reliability of other's logic mechanisms.
I too have zero expectation that I will argue anyone to a new position, I share and if that nudges the curiosity or a reader to also enjoy the journey of exploration, that is enough. Also it's fun to compare and observe how other people consider a matter. And lastly, I suppose I do have some motivation to participate because I feel religion robbed me of many great experiences in my early life that are impossible to recover. I wasted far too many years even bothering thinking about gods let alone the resources I contributed to religious operations and evangelism. I really wish the word Atheism didn't even need to exist, because the root word theism did not exist, but I do understand it does afford coping mechanisms for people to handle life, in addition to the awful things that have also been components of assorted religions.
I hope your journey to resolution is swift and your subsequent journey, in the resultant contentment, long and enjoyable.
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