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However, there is invariably always some discernible and knowable process that makes what is observed intelligible and understandable. That is what Einstein found so fascinating and inexplicable - that our Reality is intelligible, not chaotic. That provides a basis for inferring that God is controlling how things happen.
No, that infers we evolved to make sense of our world, otherwise we would die out.
As to order, not chaos, if our existence needs a god to create order, then where does this gods order come from? If you argue it is inherent in gods existence, then it can be inherent in existence itself, and therefore no god is required to explain it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Unfortunately, you and science in general prefer to give it the neutral label of "natural laws" without any provision for a lawgiver.
It is not a preference, it is that you can not provide any evidence for a law giver
Nagel does not represent me, I would like my childhood view of Christianity to be true. I would get to see my Father and Grandfather again.
Sure. I would love to see my son again, particularly if in the afterlife state he were free of the various handicaps he suffered from. Who wouldn't want to indulge such fantasies?
Theism -- especially Christianity -- promises the moon, and why not? There is no possible accountability when most of the notes only come due in some asserted afterlife. However, they DO make some promises that apply to this life, and that was the start of their undoing.
Unlike Nagel, I am (or at least, was) quite predisposed to be open to belief in god. That is why I wasn't an atheist until my late 30's. It took a lot of lived experience counter to the truth claims to pry me away from it, kicking and screaming. There are still claw-marks in the earth in the place where I deconverted, doubtless.
But unlike some folks I do need some consonance between truth claims and reality, or I start questioning the dogma -- and here I am, almost 30 years later.
Theism -- especially Christianity -- promises the moon, and why not? There is no possible accountability when most of the notes only come due in some asserted afterlife. However, they DO make some promises that apply to this life, and that was the start of their undoing.
Spot on!
The undoing must overcome, peer pressure, social pressure, the law of consistency, desire for revenge, appeal to ego and feeling superior/special, the emotions of separation and loss, and a host of others. It's remarkable some people are able to successfully navigate all of those and come out changed.
The notion of a caring being capable of eventually repairing everything that is wrong, is quite comforting indeed. At least until you start asking yourself, "If this being had unlimited permutations to select from, and willingly selected this version, that requires so much repair in the first place, then such a being is also shockingly incompetent, unworthy of a deity designation."
No, that infers we evolved to make sense of our world, otherwise we would die out.
As to order, not chaos, if our existence needs a god to create order, then where does this gods order come from? If you argue it is inherent in gods existence, then it can be inherent in existence itself, and therefore no god is required to explain it.
It is not a preference, it is that you can not provide any evidence for a law giver
It is NOT about explaining it because we do not know what the hell it actually IS! You can only prefer to believe it is NOT God because all our human speculations and attributions to God are not verifiable. Human beliefs are NOT empirical evidence about our Reality. They do not provide any evidence one way or the other. You seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that our positions about it are EQUIVALENT. Neither of us has any evidence that can irrefutably establish our position as the default other than by PREFERENCE!
It is NOT about explaining it because we do not know what the hell it actually IS! You can only prefer to believe it is NOT God because all our human speculations and attributions to God are not verifiable. Human beliefs are NOT empirical evidence about our Reality. They do not provide any evidence one way or the other. You seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that our positions about it are EQUIVALENT. Neither of us has any evidence that can irrefutably establish our position as the default other than by PREFERENCE!
Everybody here understands what reality is. Everybody here knows what God means.
Except you.
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If you are claiming that everything is God, you need to place those posts in the Pantheism thread.
It is NOT about explaining it because we do not know what the hell it actually IS! You can only prefer to believe it is NOT God because all our human speculations and attributions to God are not verifiable. Human beliefs are NOT empirical evidence about our Reality. They do not provide any evidence one way or the other. You seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that our positions about it are EQUIVALENT. Neither of us has any evidence that can irrefutably establish our position as the default other than by PREFERENCE!
No they are not, if everyone operated under the position that the term God and the term Universe (or Reality) were synonymous, we would not even be having this discussion. They mean distinctly different things. Even amongst most believers, the universe is a product of god, and not identical to god.
It is NOT about explaining it because we do not know what the hell it actually IS! You can only prefer to believe it is NOT God because all our human speculations and attributions to God are not verifiable. Human beliefs are NOT empirical evidence about our Reality. They do not provide any evidence one way or the other. You seem to have difficulty accepting the fact that our positions about it are EQUIVALENT. Neither of us has any evidence that can irrefutably establish our position as the default other than by PREFERENCE!
No they are not, if everyone operated under the position that the term God and the term Universe (or Reality) were synonymous, we would not even be having this discussion. They mean distinctly different things. Even amongst most believers, the universe is a product of god, and not identical to god.
1.2 billion Hindus, Jains and others believe the Universe IS god, divinity, higher power, all interchangeable nouns in meaning. They believe it is the ONLY Reality. Your categorical statements are based either on ignorance, which is understandable, or arrogant dismissal of all other than Christians as not believers, which is bigoted.
1.2 billion Hindus, Jains and others believe the Universe IS god, divinity, higher power, all interchangeable nouns in meaning. They believe it is the ONLY Reality. Your categorical statements are based either on ignorance, which is understandable, or arrogant dismissal of all other than Christians as not believers, which is bigoted.
No, it's not bigotry. It is a difference of opinion.
Everybody here understands what reality is. Everybody here knows what God means.
Except you.
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If you are claiming that everything is God, you need to place those posts in the Pantheism thread.
Hinduism is not Pantheism it is Monism. It claims there is only Oneness, and that is ALL there is, it exists in everything, and there is nothing it does not exist in. If you are discussing religion and belief yo cannot dismiss everything other than Christian as not religion. That is an anti-intellectual position.
If there is a rule against responding to quote in red, well i guess i just violated it by correcting your false statement.
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