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Maybe you have the data that will be of interest to everyone. The percentage of clergy that defraud the trust of their members, compared to the percentage of fraudsters in the general population, finance, research, science, politics whatever. Just present the data.
Anyone can have personal anecdote and someone else can have one that disputes that, or someone can just make stuff up. Data from reliable source that shows somehow the clergy are more susceptible to corruption than the general population is. That should not be so hard for you as you claim great documentation. Just facts, no BS
Are you ever going to supply data about atheists trying to stop religion or of being anti Islam or wishing to prevent Muslim women from wearing religious garb?
Of course the majority of clergy have not purchased private jets but no one ever said that they did. First you asked a poster if he had first hand experience with a pastor buying a jet and then when a poster answer that they did all of a sudden you demand data with percentage of how many. That is definitely moving the goal posts. And we have no clue if you would accept any data presented or just change to new demands.
Just what will it finally take for you to accept that some pastors buy private jets with tax exempt church money?
Just what will it finally take for you to accept that some pastors buy private jets with tax exempt church money?
Probably about as long as it will take to accept that theism's claim to possess and promote and model superior morality, ethics, selflessness and wisdom set a higher bar anyway. I'm old enough to remember when tales of televangelists living lavish lifestyles was still scandalous. Now it is commonplace. We expect wealthy oligarchs to live in mansions, but there was a time when we expected our clergy to at least pretend to be uninterested in earthly wealth, status and luxury. Now it's just, meh, there's another one.
Probably about as long as it will take to accept that theism's claim to possess and promote and model superior morality, ethics, selflessness and wisdom set a higher bar anyway. I'm old enough to remember when tales of televangelists living lavish lifestyles was still scandalous. Now it is commonplace. We expect wealthy oligarchs to live in mansions, but there was a time when we expected our clergy to at least pretend to be uninterested in earthly wealth, status and luxury. Now it's just, meh, there's another one.
And also, well, it has been my experience, that some people can't blame themselves. If you look at personality traits you can find out a bit about them.
I always thought ... You believed him. Sure, he has some responsibility, but we are cupule, at least as much.
I never believed them. I saw them. I went to 12 years private chatholic school and didn;t believe it for most of it. .
But I had regular crazy parents so I only see people doing things ... not a bogyman like religion or deity thing.
He was worse than that! My parents tithed, and they would put cash in a jar in their room that went into the envelopes for Sunday and we'd each get some for "offering" during Sunday School.
They noticed at some point that the church cash seemed to be diminishing, and it turned out to be because my big bro was filching it and buying cupcakes and candy for his friends.
Probably about as long as it will take to accept that theism's claim to possess and promote and model superior morality, ethics, selflessness and wisdom set a higher bar anyway. I'm old enough to remember when tales of televangelists living lavish lifestyles was still scandalous. Now it is commonplace. We expect wealthy oligarchs to live in mansions, but there was a time when we expected our clergy to at least pretend to be uninterested in earthly wealth, status and luxury. Now it's just, meh, there's another one.
Sometimes it's done on a smaller scale. When I was a teenager, they found a youth minister for the church, hoping to get the last straggling remnants of teens to remain at the church. My parents were very active in the church and so I had to go to the new youth group that was formed.
The new youth minister assured us that he was cool and that we would not only do Bible studies and prayers and services, we could do fun things, too. In fact, he mentioned that there was going to be a Frank Zappa concert in the area, and if we'd all like to go, we could give him the money and he would get the tickets. The next week we brought him our money for the concert tickets. And never saw him again.
He was worse than that! My parents tithed, and they would put cash in a jar in their room that went into the envelopes for Sunday and we'd each get some for "offering" during Sunday School.
They noticed at some point that the church cash seemed to be diminishing, and it turned out to be because my big bro was filching it and buying cupcakes and candy for his friends.
As naughty as that was, I have a certain grudging admiration for the little stinker.
Sometimes it's done on a smaller scale. When I was a teenager, they found a youth minister for the church, hoping to get the last straggling remnants of teens to remain at the church. My parents were very active in the church and so I had to go to the new youth group that was formed.
The new youth minister assured us that he was cool and that we would not only do Bible studies and prayers and services, we could do fun things, too. In fact, he mentioned that there was going to be a Frank Zappa concert in the area, and if we'd all like to go, we could give him the money and he would get the tickets. The next week we brought him our money for the concert tickets. And never saw him again.
Unlike her brother, my stepdaughter was, until her senior year of high school, rather enamored of the Bible stories and religion, and attended a local Presbyterian church favored by her Dad. My wife neither encouraged nor discouraged this, in fact, she bought her children's Bible story books and read to her at bedtime from them, etc. That church's minister was exposed as having his hand in the church funds for personal use, and fired. I don't think that was the sole reason for her disillusion with the whole thing, but it didn't help. At the end of her catechism class her senior year, which was structured as "we're all going to be open minded, consider the evidence, and arrive at whatever conclusion makes sense", she said her conclusion was that the Christian god is not real and the dogma makes no sense. Obviously while they were claiming to be open minded, this was the occasion for some shocked silence.
For all my differences with my stepdaughter, I think she was seriously bad-ass in taking that stand.
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