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Terrorism is politically motivated and is the unlawful use of violence or intimidation; obviously, such militant organizations are not protected.
How can you continually speak to hijackers and militant terrorist (criminal) organizations sans addressing legal concepts, protected groups, the Geneva Conventions or ‘any of that stuff’, particularly when you’re apparently using such as a reason to support your opposition of religion, per the thread.
Point (logically) being, it doesn’t matter if they were i.e. we indict persons, not religion or atheism.
What a bizarre interpretation of my quoted post, particularly since I’ve made it more than clear where I stand (and why) throughout this thread (and relative to other posts of mine you have quoted as well); hence, your comment is irrational. Obviously, anti-theists (those who aggressively proselytize against the dangers of religion) represent only about 10% of atheists, although I’ve seen the percentage as low as five to a high of fifteen.
That said, this is a great example of what I stated previously i.e. folks (and their posts) speak for themselves, particularly when they are antagonistic toward those of us who take a less emotional approach to our atheism, by continually assuming we ‘fight for’ or favor religion simply because we have logicality on our side as to why it shouldn’t be opposed.
As a lawyer, I have sworn/affirmed to support the Constitution of the United States (and the Constitution of the State of California as well). My ‘arguing’ in this thread is specifically relative to my rights as an atheist while also respecting/upholding the rights of others.
You seem to forget that the part of the forum we are in here is "Religion And Spirituality", not "The Law". It isn't that legal aspects are irrelevant to almost any topic. But the context here is whether or not the atheists in this forum want to "end" or "stop" religion. I know that becasue I started the thread. We all concede that legally that would be impossible. The point of the thread was ANSWERING the religionists in this forum who keep saying that 'we' atheists want to "end" or "stop" religion. You are intentionally missing the context of the thread because you want to keep bragging about being a lawyer, in a thread that has nothing to do with the law.
You seem to forget that the part of the forum we are in here is "Religion And Spirituality", not "The Law". It isn't that legal aspects are irrelevant to almost any topic. But the context here is whether or not the atheists in this forum want to "end" or "stop" religion. I know that becasue I started the thread. We all concede that legally that would be impossible. The point of the thread was ANSWERING the religionists in this forum who keep saying that 'we' atheists want to "end" or "stop" religion. You are intentionally missing the context of the thread because you want to keep bragging about being a lawyer, in a thread that has nothing to do with the law.
It's pretty hilarious that the poster with the debate skills of a 9 year old, keeps reminding us that they're a lawyer. While ignoring everyone's points, and instead putting words in people's mouth and straw man fallacy.
Hate?? Bigotry?? Division?? You mean, like, when they chant, "Death to the Jews!" "Death to Israel!"? Etc.?
Most of the Islamic countries have little to no concept of human rights or personal freedom (and little in the way of tolerance of religious freedom outside of their state religion), and, of course, zero democracy.
Homosexuality is literally a crime that carries the death penalty, in some of these countries. As backed by their interpretation of the text of the Quran, and their fundamentalist view of its divine perfection of every word, which is what determines their laws and justifies their dictatorships.
And yet, if I dare criticize that fact, if I say anything about their religion or culture, then I'm a bigot?
Yes, there are liberal and moderate Muslims across the world, but the problem is that Islam's extremists, are the ones running their countries, and running their various organized terrorist groups.
That's the main difference IMO between Christianity and Islam. Christianity's holy texts are just as BS and arguably in some cases almost as looney as the Quran's texts, but Christians don't take the bible seriously. For the vast majority of Christians (and the ones with any kind of power), the bible is not a word for word manual for literalist fundamentalism and holy war and etc. And all of the Christian majority countries are mostly secular.
This right here, is your brain on fundamentalist religion:
"After hearing an initial report that "three people were killed" in the bombing, Tamimi stated:
I admit that I was a bit disappointed, because I had hoped for a larger toll. Yet when they said "three dead," I said: 'Allah be praised' ... Two minutes later, they said on the radio that the number had increased to five. I wanted to hide my smile, but I just couldn't. Allah be praised, it was great. As the number of dead kept increasing, the passengers were applauding"
As a person who strives to be liberal and rational, yes, I use the word evil to describe this person, her actions, and the state of her mind. I am not bigoted against theists in general. I just don't tolerate evil.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-question.html Is-America-greatest-threat-world-peace--Forget-Russia-Forget-Iran-
Since you insist on bringing politics into thread after thread, America is considered the greatest threat to world peace by many. Not muslims.
Does this mean all christians are terrorists?
You did not responded to my question about Israel, not a surprise. I will repeat. It is declared as a Jewish state, with Judaism privilaged, and the judiciary which supports secularism is in danger of getting dissolved. It is boycotted by the BDS movement that finds Israel creating an apartheid state in Palestine, and oppressing Muslims.
Are all Jews to be blamed for the actions of the state of Israel?
Where does this end?
You seem to forget that the part of the forum we are in here is "Religion And Spirituality", not "The Law". It isn't that legal aspects are irrelevant to almost any topic. But the context here is whether or not the atheists in this forum want to "end" or "stop" religion. I know that becasue I started the thread.
You seem to forget everyone is (or should be) welcome to an opinion, including me; naturally, it is going to be based in re: one’s knowledge, experiences, judgement and reasoning/applicability of such. It’s as if you’re expecting me to separate from the aforementioned for the sake of responding to the thread, which is hilariously absurd. Essentially, you’re telling me how to think; is that not what religionists do?
That said, my posts have always been relevant to the thread (and reality).
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
We all concede that legally that would be impossible.
If one acknowledges it’s impossible, what’s the point of ‘debating’ (per primaltech, below) anti-theistic ideology; it’s everywhere in this thread/forum. It isn’t any different than the theists who consider atheism to be dangerous or think of us as immoral; it’s all meaningless chatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
It's pretty hilarious that the poster with the debate skills of a 9 year old, keeps reminding us that they're a lawyer. While ignoring everyone's points, and instead putting words in people's mouth and straw man fallacy.
I haven’t ignored your points; I simply disagree with them (and don’t respect they’re obviously coming from a place of anger, not logic), and I’ve explained why. That said, it’s pretty hilarious you don’t rationally or intelligently approach a discussion (or accept when one disagrees with you); rather, you insult folks on a personal level in order to appear as those you have the (self-righteous) upper-hand in what you consider to be a debate.
The First Amendment is fact, not an opinion; there isn’t anything to debate as far as I’m concerned, other than anger and nonsense. Enjoy yourself! :-)
You seem to forget everyone is (or should be) welcome to an opinion, including me; naturally, it is going to be based in re: one’s knowledge, experiences, judgement and reasoning/applicability of such. It’s as if you’re expecting me to separate from the aforementioned for the sake of responding to the thread, which is hilariously absurd. Essentially, you’re telling me how to think; is that not what religionists do?
That said, my posts have always been relevant to the thread (and reality).
If one acknowledges it’s impossible, what’s the point of ‘debating’ (per primaltech, below) anti-theistic ideology; it’s everywhere in this thread/forum. It isn’t any different than the theists who consider atheism to be dangerous or think of us as immoral; it’s all meaningless chatter.
I haven’t ignored your points; I simply disagree with them (and don’t respect they’re obviously coming from a place of anger, not logic), and I’ve explained why. That said, it’s pretty hilarious you don’t rationally or intelligently approach a discussion (or accept when one disagrees with you); rather, you insult folks on a personal level in order to appear as those you have the (self-righteous) upper-hand in what you consider to be a debate.
The First Amendment is fact, not an opinion; there isn’t anything to debate as far as I’m concerned, other than anger and nonsense. Enjoy yourself! :-)
Of course not. And not all Muslims are terrorists. Of course. Far from it. But that doesn't change any of the points I made, about Islam and its current state and effects in the world, and how its believers tend to approach it from a rigid fundamentalism and theocratic bent, that we don't see within the mainstream sects of Christianity. That coupled with the relevant fact that the Quran has a more violent/tribal content of text.
Quote:
You did not responded to my question about Israel, not a surprise. I will repeat. It is declared as a Jewish state, with Judaism privilaged, and the judiciary which supports secularism is in danger of getting dissolved. It is boycotted by the BDS movement that finds Israel creating an apartheid state in Palestine, and oppressing Muslims.
Are all Jews to be blamed for the actions of the state of Israel?
Where does this end?
I'm not an expert on all things Israel, but I can comment. Obviously I'm definitely a strong supporter of the secularism there, and am opposed to the right wing theocratic element of that country. It is definitely concerning. I've been trying to follow what's going on.
We can all go back and forth pointlessly about the whole history, and whether Israel should have been created. But it was created, and it's been a long time, and so I think the state has a right to exist, and defend itself and all that.
However, I don't think that Israel should be a Jewish state. Because I don't think any state should be any religion. They should all be fully secular, and allow for a full plurality of everyone's religion, or lack of religion.
I think Israel has committed war crimes, and I would never make an excuse for everything they've done. Neither side of that never ending conflict has their hands free of blood. It is a very complicated and nuanced, (and terrible) situation. I think that religion is the main reason why peace is prevented in the middle east.
And no, not all Israelis or Jewish people are responsible. Again, you want to claim that I am blaming all Muslims because of the problems I point out about Islam and its effects on the world. I'm not doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
If one acknowledges it’s impossible, what’s the point of ‘debating’ (per primaltech, below) anti-theistic ideology; it’s everywhere in this thread/forum.
Dude, the thread is, "Do you want to end religion?". And even I, answer that question with, no. I do not. I would like to see a reduced amount of the fundamentalism and theocracy, particularly fundamentalist Islam. I think Islam is the most destructive and harmful religion in our modern world, but I don't have a problem with someone having a personal belief in it. The problem is not liberal and moderate Muslims. It's just that unlike with Christianity, the viewpoints of the liberal and moderate Muslims are obviously not as dominant. The fringes are less fringe. Most of the majority Muslim countries are Islamic theocracies, and there are organized Islamic terrorist groups harbored within them.
Quote:
I haven’t ignored your points; I simply disagree with them
Then, disagree with them. I'm not seeing you bother to type out your own logical and reason in your retorts of whatever I think. I'm on a discussion forum so that I can have discussions and debates, and grow from it. Criticism and disagreement is no problem with me. I just have a problem with the straw man fallacies and ignoring points and misrepresenting/mischaracterizing people, putting words in people's mouth, and in general just the coming at the debate with the dishonesty and lack of good faith that you seem to be doing.
Of course not. And not all Muslims are terrorists. Of course. Far from it. But that doesn't change any of the points I made, about Islam and its current state and effects in the world, and how its believers tend to approach it from a rigid fundamentalism and theocratic bent, that we don't see within the mainstream sects of Christianity. That coupled with the relevant fact that the Quran has a more violent/tribal content of text.
All terrorists are not Muslims. There are Chrisitan terrorists and bombings in Ireland with perennial animosity between 2 sects of Christians; Sri Lankan terrorists with an oppressive Buddhist regime; Jewish terrorists; Hindu terrorists; White superracist terrorists. Perhaps you should think more carefully about why a few Muslim terrorists is always uppermost in your mind, and why you think Islam is the only problem. I am curious. Do you personally know any Muslims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
I'm not an expert on all things Israel, but I can comment. Obviously I'm definitely a strong supporter of the secularism there, and am opposed to the right wing theocratic element of that country. It is definitely concerning. I've been trying to follow what's going on.
We can all go back and forth pointlessly about the whole history, and whether Israel should have been created. But it was created, and it's been a long time, and so I think the state has a right to exist, and defend itself and all that.
However, I don't think that Israel should be a Jewish state. Because I don't think any state should be any religion. They should all be fully secular, and allow for a full plurality of everyone's religion, or lack of religion.
I think Israel has committed war crimes, and I would never make an excuse for everything they've done. Neither side of that never ending conflict has their hands free of blood. It is a very complicated and nuanced, (and terrible) situation. I think that religion is the main reason why peace is prevented in the middle east.
And no, not all Israelis or Jewish people are responsible. Again, you want to claim that I am blaming all Muslims because of the problems I point out about Islam and its effects on the world. I'm not doing that.
Why is only Islam the problem? Is it possible Muslims get radicalized when they perceive injustice and ravaging of their land, culture, and people, and they lack the power to stop it or fight back? How do you think Iraquis feel after the horrible shock and awe US inflicted on the country and its people? For all his badness Saddam's Iraq was secular. It had a Christian population and churches which vanished after the Shock and Awe.
All terrorists are not Muslims. There are Chrisitan terrorists and bombings in Ireland with perennial animosity between 2 sects of Christians; Sri Lankan terrorists with an oppressive Buddhist regime; Jewish terrorists; Hindu terrorists; White superracist terrorists. Perhaps you should think more carefully about why a few Muslim terrorists is always uppermost in your mind, and why you think Islam is the only problem. I am curious. Do you personally know any Muslims?
Why is only Islam the problem? Is it possible Muslims get radicalized when they perceive injustice and ravaging of their land, culture, and people, and they lack the power to stop it or fight back? How do you think Iraquis feel after the horrible shock and awe US inflicted on the country and its people? For all his badness Saddam's Iraq was secular. It had a Christian population and churches which vanished after the Shock and Awe.
You are not really being fair or honest, and that discourages my discussing this with you. I clearly did not say that only Islam is the only problem with religion in the world, and to the extent that I did say that, I gave my reasons for my thinking. You and lawyer guy keep ignoring every point that I make, so why am I bothering to make them? Retort them, if they're wrong.
Of course not all terrorists are Muslims... who in the heck said otherwise?
You bring up Christian denomination vs Christian denomination, needless violence and division in Ireland, and I fully agree- yeah, religion. Is bad. Religion's contribution to political disputes = never helpful, at all.
To the extent that there are Buddhist suicide bomber terrorists or whatever, then I'm equally opposed to that, too. But, clearly, Islam has a whole lot more of the violence going on, than... Jainism or whatever.
Not all religions are the same thing or the same effects on the world. Buddhism in its origins I don't think is even anything supernatural (I'm not an expert on it). Buddhism is clearly not a problem in the world.
Yes, I do know a few Muslims, actually. I'm not close with most of them, but one of them is a Pakistani guy and he is a really great guy. He is a very peaceful and good person, celebrates Ramadan and I'm sure he prays. There are Muslim people who live in my apartment building who I occasionally see praying. Again, no problem with all that. It's not the individual or their beliefs. I have no problem with individuals practicing whatever. I've stated clearly that my negative views with religion mainly center around extreme fundamentalism and the illiberal, intolerant, theocratic governing of states.
The liberal Muslims, like my friend, are a credit to Muslims. It's the world of Islam in general that needs more self-reflection, and clearly needs a lot of reform.
I've heard it argued that Christianity was at one point in a similar state, and then mostly matured out of it.
Iraq (1932–1993)
Iraq became a secular state in 1932 after its independence. However, the Ba'athist regime led by Saddam Hussein launched the Return to Faith campaign in 1993 and placed significant emphasis on Islam within all sectors of state and public life.[161]
But either way, I would never claim that only a religious theocracy could be a terrible government. Just look at atheist PRC.
Of course, it could also be argued that the state is sort of a religion in itself, in places like China or even more extreme version in North Korea.
Those pictures of Chairman Mao everywhere, kind of bring to mind a Jesus type figure.
Anyway, a government/state, should be secular, democratic, and constitutional. It can't have only some of those qualities.
You are not really being fair or honest, and that discourages my discussing this with you. I clearly did not say that only Islam is the only problem with religion in the world, and to the extent that I did say that, I gave my reasons for my thinking. You and lawyer guy keep ignoring every point that I make, so why am I bothering to make them? Retort them, if they're wrong.
Of course not all terrorists are Muslims... who in the heck said otherwise?
You bring up Christian denomination vs Christian denomination, needless violence and division in Ireland, and I fully agree- yeah, religion. Is bad. Religion's contribution to political disputes = never helpful, at all.
To the extent that there are Buddhist suicide bomber terrorists or whatever, then I'm equally opposed to that, too. But, clearly, Islam has a whole lot more of the violence going on, than... Jainism or whatever.
Not all religions are the same thing or the same effects on the world. Buddhism in its origins I don't think is even anything supernatural[b] (I'm not an expert on it)[/B]. Buddhism is clearly not a problem in the world.
Yes, I do know a few Muslims, actually. I'm not close with most of them, but one of them is a Pakistani guy and he is a really great guy. He is a very peaceful and good person, celebrates Ramadan and I'm sure he prays. There are Muslim people who live in my apartment building who I occasionally see praying. Again, no problem with all that. It's not the individual or their beliefs. I have no problem with individuals practicing whatever. I've stated clearly that my negative views with religion mainly center around extreme fundamentalism and the illiberal, intolerant, theocratic governing of states.
The liberal Muslims, like my friend, are a credit to Muslims. It's the world of Islam in general that needs more self-reflection, and clearly needs a lot of reform.
I've heard it argued that Christianity was at one point in a similar state, and then mostly matured out of it.
It is always possible to acquire it, never too late. If you are going to compare religions and hold one responsible for most of the ills, you should at least have some expertise on the subject you are talking about. The more you know the more you will understand that it is not religion that is problem. It is always the people. Only people can do good and only people can do evil stuff.
What religion were you before you became atheist?
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