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It’s not oppression i.e. their rights have not been impeded/denied; in fact, they’ve exercised their right in doing so.
exactly. it is only non-believers, or those who are anti-religion, who label it "oppression."
for those engaging in it, it is not "oppression" it is freedom.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-23-2023 at 07:26 PM..
I detect a semantic issue around the term oppression. As Phet uses it, it means subjecting your life decisions to" oppressive rules" supposedly issued by God and supporting imposing them on others in society through laws. Believers voluntarily accede to that kind of oppression.
but for believers it is not oppression. it is only oppression for those like yourself who are anti-religion, or for non believers. it is not semantics at all. it is pasting your own labels and beliefs (in this case what you believe "oppression" is) on others which is flawed because you can only see your own views, and not see others views, which for others no it is not oppression.
As Phet uses it, it means subjecting your life decisions to" oppressive rules" supposedly issued by God and supporting imposing them on others in society through laws.
Are you speaking just for Phet, or is that your opinion as well? To which laws are you referring relative to ‘oppressive rules supposedly issued by God’?
This is a charge that is made weekly, if not almost daily, by some christian and even a warped atheist. So for the rest of us atheists, is that your goal -- to "stop" or "end" religion?
My opinion is that the world would be better off, but it is none of my business if someone wants to adhere to any religion (as long as they are not infringing on my right to choose otherwise). This actually seems as loaded a question as the ones that the religious post to atheists about morals or other justifications to prove atheists are wrong.
My opinion is that the world would be better off, but it is none of my business if someone wants to adhere to any religion (as long as they are not infringing on my right to choose otherwise). This actually seems as loaded a question as the ones that the religious post to atheists about morals or other justifications to prove atheists are wrong.
And I see again, I am late to the party.
Well, it was my OP, and I wouldn't call it a loaded question. I just wanted to see if any atheists here actually wanted to "end" or "stop" religion. Did I already know what the answer was? Yes, I did. But it was still an opportunity for any atheist to speak up and say they yes, they did want that. And my conclusion is that only one poster in our forum actually wants that. So, religionists, take notice.
I wish religions would go away; all are based on fictional "supreme" beings, which is nonsense. Over the centuries religions have been the source of massive conflict, death and human misery. Here's an old saying that sums it up:
Quote:
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.
In 6000 years of recorded history we humans have invented at least 3700 "gods." All fiction. Most were created to explain the natural world for which there was no science to explain "scary" things like the solar system, planets, how nature works or the origin of that bright thing up in the sky. If you visit Wikipedia and search on "Solar Deity" you'll get a long list of major sun gods from around the world. All fiction. All created to explain things for which no science then was available.
When humans don't have an explanation for something they make up an answer that suits them. All peoples, on all six habitable continents, have a "creator" myth. Native Americans have their "Great Father" myth, and so it went worldwide. Since men usually ran early/primitive societies, their version of a creator always was a male -- and said to be just like them.
The human mind CRAVES certainty. We want to KNOW, for sure, what's on the other side of the mountain, lake, river, or ocean, so we go exploring. Closed doors intrigue us, we open those doors to see what's on the other side; I that do every time I tour a home for sale ... to see what's hiding behind that door. That's why many nations have a version of the CIA; they want to know, for sure, what that guy is up to.
There were gods created to explain the natural world and nature's events. The wind usually blows from the west, so we learned about the "prevailing westerlies" in middle school because NOW we have the science to explain it. The Greeks didn't know this, so they created a god, Zephyrus. From Wiki:
Quote:
In Greek mythology and religion, Zephyrus also spelled in English as Zephyr is the god and personification of the West wind, one of the several wind gods, the Anemoi. The son of Eos, the goddess of the dawn, and Astraeus, Zephyrus is the most gentle and favourable of the winds, and is also associated with flowers, springtime and even procreation.
Here in the USA, in the mid-1900s, our better railroads named their fastest, best passenger trains after Zephyrus. Many examples are found in Wiki. The whole point was to imply that these were fast trains . . . trains so fast that they ran with the wind. Many of these trains had first class service and truly fine dining while aboard.
So it went, worldwide, since time began, in every nation, city-state, tribe, clan, village and group of people. When humans band together to assure safety from saber-tooth tigers, lions, bears, mastodons, or safety from other groups, there are two things which soon appear. One, who's in charge, who's the Poobah we salute and whose orders we follow. Two, they set the rules for group living. Call them what you will; rules of engagement, rules of the road, a code you can live by, norms and standards. Western religion long ago settled on the mythical origin of the Ten Commandments. No matter where on the planet we go, each "society" of people had the equivalent of the Ten Commandments. Such metrics went by various names, but the gist was the same; a set of shared standards critical for peaceful co-existence and harmony in the group -- which in ancient times truly was necessary for sheer survival. Within the past 20 years, explorers found as-yet undiscovered primitive tribal peoples in a remote area of the Amazon rain forest. Yep, they had their own home-grown version of the "ten commandments" even though no white man ever preached the gospel to them.
I could go on, but my bottom line is we need to move on from ancient explanations for the origins of the universe, natural world and all creatures known and yet unknown. It is what it is, nothing more, and not the magical creation of a magical being. Let's call the Book of Genesis what it really is, the world's first super hero comic book wherein an invisible being, who sees all and knows all, somehow spits out a limitless universe that's so immeasurable there are not enough commas and zeroes to measure the weight of it all.
We need to replace religions with something like Secular Humanism, the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God. Convert church buildings to local 'ethical debate societies;' gathering places, a community center where all are welcome and the needs of the local humanity are addressed. Some churches provide a semblance of community with their various programs but the cost of inclusion is the required buy-in to their deity.
From Wiki:
Quote:
Secular humanism is a philosophy, belief system or life stance that embraces human reason, secular ethics, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, and superstition as the basis of morality and decision making.
We humans can do this. It's way past time to go there.
In the WaPo this week there's a story by a man whose article is titled: "I left the church — and now long for a ‘church for the nones.’" Count me as a 'none' who wants a community of 'nones' who care about what matters, not about myths. Of course, my postings usually offer a few excerpts, so here goes:
Quote:
About 40% of adults between 18 and 29 are nones, and so are plenty of people over 65 (about 20%). ... In their new book, “The Great Dechurching,” Jim Davis, Michael Graham and Ryan Burge estimate that about 40 million Americans used to attend church but don’t now. ...
The WaPo is a paywall site, but THIS link will get you past the paywall to the story -- it's WORTH reading.
What I want is a community of fellow citizens, without the theology.
It would be remiss of me if I didn't mention Jesus. Yes, he existed. But I will not buy the myths around him. He didn't walk on water, the SCIENCE of tree rings tells us there was a period of very cold weather in his region in his timeframe. No doubt the edges of a lake or river froze over and he set foot on the ice while illiterate fisherman saw this and went agog -- after all, they'd never seen ice before. And no, he didn't rise from the dead, his followers rolled the stone away from the cave his body was in and they buried him elsewhere. But yes, he existed and he said some nice things. IMO Jesus and the modern day musician, Jerry Garcia (deceased) were the same thing; a nice guy who said likable things, traveled around spreading his word (music) at gatherings attended by fans (disciples). Many teachings of Jesus could be incorporated into the ethic of Secular Humanism, just leave out the mythology and theology. Both were cool guys; peace, love and brotherhood. Let's get on with it.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 08-27-2023 at 02:26 PM..
I wish religions would go away; all are based on fictional "supreme" beings, which is nonsense. Over the centuries religions have been the source of massive conflict, death and human misery. Here's an old saying that sums it up: In 6000 years of recorded history we humans have invented at least 3700 "gods." All fiction. Most were created to explain the natural world for which there was no science to explain "scary" things like the solar system, planets, how nature works or the origin of that bright thing up in the sky. If you visit Wikipedia and search on "Solar Deity" you'll get a long list of major sun gods from around the world. All fiction. All created to explain things for which no science then was available. When humans don't have an explanation for something they make up an answer that suits them. All peoples, on all six habitable continents, have a "creator" myth. Native Americans have their "Great Father" myth, and so it went worldwide. Since men usually ran early /primitive societies, their version of a creator was always male. Imagine that.The human mind CRAVES certainty. We want to KNOW, for sure, what's on the other side of the mountain, lake, river, or ocean, so we go exploring. Closed doors intrigue us, we open those doors to see what's on the other side; I that do every time I tour a home for sale ... to see what's hiding behind that door. That's why many nations have a version of the CIA; they want to know, for sure, what that guy is up to.There were gods created to explain the natural world and nature's events. The wind usually blows from the west, so we learned about the "prevailing westerlies" in middle school because NOW we have the science to explain it. The Greeks didn't know this, so they created a god, Zephyrus. From Wiki: Here in the USA, in the mid-1900s, our better railroads named their fastest, best passenger trains after Zephyrus. Many examples are found in Wiki. The whole point was to imply that these were fast trains . . . trains so fast that they ran with the wind. Many of these trains had first class service and truly fine dining while aboard.So it went, worldwide, since time began, in every nation, city-state, tribe, clan, village and group of people. When humans band together to assure safety from saber-tooth tigers, lions, bears, mastodons, or safety from other groups, there are two things which soon appear. One, who's in charge, who's the Poobah we salute and whose orders we follow. Two, they set the rules for group living. Call them what you will; rules of engagement, rules of the road, a code you can live by, norms and standards. Western religion long ago settled on the mythical origin of the Ten Commandments. No matter where on the planet we go, each "society" of people had the equivalent of the Ten Commandments. Such metrics went by various names, but the gist was the same; a set of shared standards critical for peaceful co-existence and harmony in the group -- which in ancient times truly was necessary for sheer survival. Within the past 20 years, explorers found yet undiscovered primitive tribal people in a remote area of the Amazon rain forest. Yep, they had their version of the "ten commandments" even though no one ever preached the gospel to them.I could go on, but my bottom line is we need to move on from ancient explanations for the origins of the universe, natural world and all creatures known and yet unknown. It is what it is, nothing more, and not the magical creation of a magical being. Let's call the Book of Genesis what it really is, the world's first super hero comic book wherein an invisible being, who sees all and knows all, somehow spits out a limitless universe that's so immeasurable there are not enough commas and zeroes to measure the weight of it all. We need to replace religions with something like Secular Humanism, the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God. Convert church buildings in to local 'ethical debate society' gathering places, a community center where all are welcome and the needs of humanity are addressed. From Wiki: We humans can do this. It's way past time to start.In the WaPo this week there's a story by a man whose article is titled: "I left the church — and now long for a ‘church for the nones.’" Count me as a 'none' who wants a community of 'nones' who care about what matters, not about myths. Of course, my postings usually offer a few excerpts, so here goes:The WaPo is a paywall site, but THIS link will get you past the paywall to the story -- it's WORTH reading. What I want is a community of fellow citizens, without the theology.It would be remiss of me if I didn't mention Jesus. Yes, he existed. But I will not buy the myths around him. He didn't walk on water, the SCIENCE of tree rings tells us there was a period of very cold weather in his region in his timeframe. No doubt the edges of a lake or river froze over and he set foot on the ice while illiterate fisherman saw this and went agog -- after all, they'd never seen ice before. And no, he didn't rise from the dead, his followers rolled the stone away from the cave his body was in and they buried him elsewhere. But yes, he existed and he said some nice things. IMO Jesus and the modern day musician, Jerry Garcia (deceased) were the same thing; a nice guy who said likable things, traveled around spreading his word (music) at gatherings attended by fans (disciples). Many teachings of Jesus could be incorporated into the ethic of Secular Humanism, just leave out the mythology and theology. Both were cool guys; peace, love and brotherhood. Let's get on with it.
In the USA 72% of religious "nones" (no religious affiliation) believe in God or a Higher Power.
In the USA, 90% of people believe in God or a Higher Power.
view in post above states (first sentence) they "wish religion would go away."
Well in that imaginary fantasy where poof religion goes away, guess what: belief in God still exists.
it's like saying get rid of all the books on anatomy and physiology and poof! all that is graphically described therein will magically vanish.
that is fanciful wishful thinking. because knowledge of anatomy and physiology exists and is recognized, whether or not "anatomy books" are written about it and whether or not "people gather" together to discuss the topic. Same with Divinity. Knowledge of divinity exists and is recognized, whether or not "holy books" are published and whether or not "people gather" to discuss the topic.
In the USA 72% of religious "nones" (no religious affiliation) believe in God or a Higher Power.
In the USA, 90% of people believe in God or a Higher Power.
view in post above states (first sentence) they "wish religion would go away."
Well in that imaginary fantasy where poof religion goes away, guess what: belief in God still exists.
it's like saying get rid of all the books on anatomy and physiology and poof! all that is graphically described therein will magically vanish.
that is fanciful wishful thinking. because knowledge of anatomy and physiology exists and is recognized, whether or not "anatomy books" are written about it and whether or not "people gather" together to discuss the topic. Same with Divinity.
You spent all that time to tell us what we want does not always come true? Just like religion? Well in your imaginary fantasy where different religions will not go away, guess what: belief in different gods still exists. That too is fanciful thinking, not all religions can be true, therefore most of them must be false.
Using your own argument, in the USA 72% of religious "nones" (no religious affiliation) believe in God or a Higher Power.
In the USA, 90% of people believe in God or a Higher Power. And most of them appear to believe in a different god to yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Knowledge of divinity exists and is recognized, whether or not "holy books" are published and whether or not "people gather" to discuss the topic.
Well in that imaginary fantasy where knowledge of divinity exists and is recognized, guess what: belief in different gods / divinities still exists. That does not make your belief true, it increases the chance that it is false.
So you say. In reality, this knowledge is indistinguishable from non existent.
It's woo woo
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