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Probably not what you were expecting, eh? Not exactly the New Atheist gospel, eh? Not exactly even the C-D atheist gospel, eh?
It is unsurprising and unperturbing to me.
Basic facts:
* People in general are not logically consistent across the board, or sometimes at all, in their thinking or beliefs
* Atheists, tend to be more logically consistent, but not perfectly so
* The atheists that bother to argue their case in places like this are going to tend to be "pure naturalists", as the study puts it
* There is no "gotcha" here, as you seem to imagine there is. Atheism, definitionally, is a one-trick pony: it is about not believing in any deity. Atheists, being people, are perfectly capable of not believing in any deity but selectively believing in other non-falsifiable ideas. I'm not one of them, but in fairness to them -- gods are such fanciful concepts that comparatively speaking, ghosts or homeopathy or ancestor worship is less far-fetched.
I ran across a fascinating study by the “Understanding Unbelief” project of the University of Kent in partnership with other universities and institutions. The study was reported in 2019 and included thousands of atheists and agnostics from Brazil, China, Denmark, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States.
The Understanding Unbelief project appears to be sympathetic to unbelief; it’s scarcely a religious think tank. The website is here: https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/. The mission is stated thusly: “Understanding Unbelief is a major research programme aiming to advance the scientific understanding of atheism and other forms of so-called ‘unbelief’ around the world. Its central research questions concern the nature and diversity of ‘unbelief’.”
Atheists were those who self-identified with the statement “I don’t believe in God.” Agnostics were those who self-identified with the statement “I don’t know whether there is a God, and I don’t believe there is any way to find out.” Another option was simply “Don’t know,” but those respondents weren’t categorized as atheists or agnostics.
Regarding supernatural beliefs, the study included the following:
Life after death
Reincarnation
Astrology
Objects with mystical powers
People with mystical powers
Significant events “meant to be”
Supernatural beings
Underlying forces of good or evil
Universal spirit or life force
Karma
The percentages of belief in the above phenomena, shown in graphs on pages 13 and 14 of the report, are pretty eye-popping. The general population results are predictably much higher than those of agnostics, and the agnostic results are higher than those of atheists. American atheists show approximately 15% belief in almost every category, well above 20% for “Significant events ‘meant to be’”, “Underlying forces of good or evil” and “Universal spirit or life force.” “Supernatural beings” were right at 20%.
The study also identified those atheists and agnostics who were “thoroughgoing naturalists.” They either “strongly” or “somewhat” disagreed with the existence of any and all supernatural phenomena. I quote from page 15:
As can be seen above, in none of our six countries surveyed does the percentage of unbelievers who qualify as naturalists approach 50%. Even among American atheists, the most naturalistic group across our surveyed countries, only a third seem to have a wholly naturalistic world view. Among Chinese atheists meanwhile, fewer than one in ten does.
As one might predict from the previous graphs, agnostics are consistently less likely to be naturalists than atheists. In no country does more than one in ten agnostics qualify; in China, it is more like one in fifty.
Probably not what you were expecting, eh? Not exactly the New Atheist gospel, eh? Not exactly even the C-D atheist gospel, eh?
What a silly argument, we even have an atheist here (Goldie), who argues through inept logic that what is not a god is actually a god.
It's exactly what I'd expect.
It's exactly what I've been saying for multiple posts.
Irkle you seem to think this is all a revelation.
Atheism means absence of belief in god ONLY.
It rules out nothing else.
I wonder if you would benefit from spending some time in Britain?
Atheism is not at all unusual there. It's freely talked about. It's a cultural norm. I'd say approximately half my family and friends in the UK are atheists. The ones that are atheists have individual beliefs in all kids of other things, some of which I share, some of which I don't. This is what I've been saying from the beginning.
My brother believes his departed wife's spirit is nearby. He's an atheist. I mentioned exactly this in a post only very recently.
This survey is exactly what I'd expect from my personal knowledge of other atheists, which is extensive in comparison to US standards.
I actually lived in Kent for 15 years about 2 miles from this University. I miss it with every fibre. It's a wonderful place to live. The fact that this study was conducted through the University of Kent doesn't surprise me either. Brits are very open minded people don't you know?
Yes I said my last post was my last one for a while but how could I skip past this?
Is there any study or poll such as the Pew Research that shows how the Brits break out between atheists and believers ? and how it compares to rest of Europe? compares to rest of western world? that will be interesting to know.
i have met “open minded” Brits who were fans of Trump and total Brexiters in our travels. Those two seemed to go together.
Is there any study or poll such as the Pew Research that shows how the Brits break out between atheists and believers ? and how it compares to rest of Europe? compares to rest of western world? that will be interesting to know.
i have met “open minded” Brits who were fans of Trump and total Brexiters in our travels. Those two seemed to go together.
Personally I've never read any atheistic books. I've also never watched atheist tv, documentaries, or listened to podcasts on atheism.
Christians seem to think there has to be some form of preaching for an atheist to become an atheist. If they have their bible and their preachers and their church services then we must have some sort of equivalent.
Cruithne is correct. Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). That's all.
Any other beliefs, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
There are atheists I know who identify positively as such, who reject god, religion, religious practices, worship, religious teachers, astrology, reincarnation and karma. Positively. These are the only atheists i have met. Until i knew something like American atheists exist from CD. Interesting.
Oh the only other kind of American atheist i am familiar with is of course Madeleine O’Haire
There are atheists I know who identify positively as such, who reject god, religion, religious practices, worship, religious teachers, astrology, reincarnation and karma. Positively. These are the only atheists i have met. Until i knew something like American atheists exist from CD. Interesting.
Oh the only other kind of American atheist i am familiar with is of course Madeleine O’Haire
Most of us have personally met VERY few, some if any, atheists.
Most of us have personally met VERY few, some if any, atheists.
I'd wager most of us know several, it just isn't a topic that's come up. I've known several atheists iRL who are not the stereotypical (and largely imaginary) "militant" atheist who actively hates and truly "attacks" religion. A couple don't even embrace the label "atheist" (tellingly, both women ... they are more relationally oriented and the overt label is a barrier to communication and emotional connection with others, particularly other women). But they don't believe in any deities, at all, and so they fit the actual definition. Those two would regard themselves as "open-minded" agnostics. Which they also are. They are just emphasizing the knowledge position rather than the belief position.
The big problem in discussions like this is the preconceived image of "atheist" that different people have in between their ears, which tends to lead to the selection bias of only noticing "outspoken" atheists. Which are actually in fairly short supply. Most of us just mind our own business.
I'd wager most of us know several, it just isn't a topic that's come up. I've known several atheists iRL who are not the stereotypical (and largely imaginary) "militant" atheist who actively hates and truly "attacks" religion. A couple don't even embrace the label "atheist" (tellingly, both women ... they are more relationally oriented and the overt label is a barrier to communication and emotional connection with others, particularly other women). But they don't believe in any deities, at all, and so they fit the actual definition. Those two would regard themselves as "open-minded" agnostics. Which they also are. They are just emphasizing the knowledge position rather than the belief position.
The big problem in discussions like this is the preconceived image of "atheist" that different people have in between their ears, which tends to lead to the selection bias of only noticing "outspoken" atheists. Which are actually in fairly short supply. Most of us just mind our own business.
Let me reframe my comment: Many of us may know atheists, but the fact that we know them doesn't mean we know they are atheists. Aside from special communities (such as my Thai Buddhist friends), I only know one American whom I know to be an atheist.
Let me reframe my comment: Many of us may know atheists, but the fact that we know them doesn't mean we know they are atheists. Aside from special communities (such as my Thai Buddhist friends), I only know one American whom I know to be an atheist.
That's a fair characterization. i don't lay quite as low as many atheists; though I'm not wearing atheism on my sleeve, I tend to discretely "flush" out semi-closeted atheists and so know more than one ... I dunno ... I guess 3 IRL.
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