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view expressed in post above demonstrates that there are atheists who hold the belief that religion is "totally wrong and misguided" no matter what stance it takes.
Try reading it again, but slowly. Take your time. We will wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
that says more about the mindset of the atheists holding that belief,
than it does about any claims they make.
Yes, it says they understand logic and you do not.
Well, take the example I gave above. Were they totally wrong and misguided for a few hundred years before, or are they totally wrong and misguided now? Either way it's no badge of excellence.
Why make binary conclusions about such complex issues? Their earlier understanding suffered from their primitive ignorance and their later interpretation represents a more knowledgeable and evolved understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
view expressed in post above demonstrates that there are atheists who hold the belief that religion is "totally wrong and misguided" no matter what stance it takes.
that says more about the mindset of the atheists holding that belief,
than it does about any claims they make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Try reading it again, but slowly. Take your time. We will wait.
Yes, it says they understand logic and you do not.
Why not try reading my response to Phet and answer it.
Bolded. As a practitioner of the essential aspects of my religion, and as a supporter of reforms, should i care what outsiders to the religion, and atheists (!) think about it? Personally, i dont give a ****.
Reforms are needed because texts that are perfectly good can be distorted in translation, inadvertently or in ignorance and intentionally, with misogyny and hate, and taught to those who have no time or capability to access the texts. Such as racism, casteism, sexism and all such evil practices. It is human error.
All religions have two parts, as i see it. One is behavior control so a civil society can be obtained. It is an imperfect system with good intention to start with. When the imperfections overwhelm the good, we get tyranny, an unjust, exploitive, communal society. This needs constant and vigilant reforms.
Then there is the spiritual aspect, which while based on the texts, are philosophical and metaphysical inquiry the relationship between the incarnated world and the Unseen that exists and pervades everything. This is the aspect that is complex and needs to be complex.
Some religions are easier to reform, such as Hinduism. It is not institutionalized, nobody can tell me I am a Hindu or not. Thus Hindus have always been secular, and consider the two parts distinct. India has never had a theocracy or state religion, not under the Mughals, not under British colonization, not in Independence. It is not Utopia, but is what it is.
Other religions are not so easy. But they still do. The sharia laws have been modified due to demand from Indian Muslim women.
Indian Catholic women had divorce laws changed.
Hindu women had inheritance rights equalized.
American Churches celebrate gay marriages.
That is how we religionists roll. Atheist cannot understand it and insist reforms should not happen because the is somehow not a “true†religion? Go ahead and throw a tantrum. We will watch.
excellent post. all of it.
regarding bold above, i'll join you.
let's have popcorn.
Why make binary conclusions about such complex issues? Their earlier understanding suffered from their primitive ignorance and their later interpretation represents a more knowledgeable and evolved understanding.
...
It's sort of like when somebody boldly lies to you, and you know it or discover it...particularly if there's a pattern of lies...you never really believe them again.
So in the example I gave -- the endorsement of slavery by many christian churches for hundreds of years, during which nearly 6 million people had their freedom totally taken away, tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) were beaten, many were raped, children were ripped away from their parents, husbands and wives separated...and more...now the churches that endorsed or at tolerated slavery -- many of which used the bible to justify it -- just get to say, "Oops, we goofed. Sorry bout that."?
I don't think so. This was no minor error. And it's not the only one. Dare I mention the sexual abuse that takes place in churches and is whitewashed? Does the Catholic Church just get to go to confession and then say ten hail Marys and ten our fathers?
Yes, everybody screws up. Me. You. Ever poster here. But when we screw up as massively as churches sometimes have...we get fired. Let's 'fire' some churches.
And by the way, I'm not saying -- and never have -- that there are no good churches.
It's sort of like when somebody boldly lies to you, and you know it or discover it...particularly if there's a pattern of lies...you never really believe them again.
So in the example I gave -- the endorsement of slavery by many christian churches for hundreds of years, during which nearly 6 million people had their freedom totally taken away, tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) were beaten, many were raped, children were ripped away from their parents, husbands and wives separated...and more...now the churches that endorsed or at tolerated slavery -- many of which used the bible to justify it -- just get to say, "Oops, we goofed. Sorry bout that."?
I don't think so. This was no minor error. And it's not the only one. Dare I mention the sexual abuse that takes place in churches and is whitewashed? Does the Catholic Church just get to go to confession and then say ten hail Marys and ten our fathers?
Yes, everybody screws up. Me. You. Ever poster here. But when we screw up as massively as churches sometimes have...we get fired. Let's 'fire' some churches.
And by the way, I'm not saying -- and never have -- that there are no good churches.
Phet, there is a world of difference between a belief IN God and in the mistakenly retained beliefs ABOUT God of our ignorant ancestors. Religions and churches have been guilty of conflating the two with muddled and corrupted human ignorance, vanity, and hubris. It continues to this day.
The belief in God is the underlying inner sense and glue that keeps the beliefs ABOUT God entrenched despite their irrationality and destructive effects. It is a human trait that is responsible for many evils, Phet. Wishing it away will simply see it emerge in some other social institution. Blaming people for being people is irrational! Seeking continuing reforms is not.
yeah but people who claim music does not exist and is a fairy tale
are in no position to evaluate anything regarding music.
Who claimed religion doesn't exit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
their understanding is zero zip nothing non-existent the empty set when it comes to the subject of music.
You don't have to be a believer in the claim a god exists in order to study religion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
there is no understanding in part, there is no understanding in total. all subsets of the empty set are still an empty set. there is no acuity of perception for someone who says music does not exist.
You logic is so broken, There are scores of people that can hear sound, can even enjoy music and detect where something is in tune or not, and are not musicians. Not being a musician is not synonymous with denying music and sound exist. AGAIN.....Who claimed religion doesn't exit?
It's almost humorous that it becomes a no-win situation for them in some instances. If they do modify a long-held position, they're easily criticized for having been so wrong for so long. If they don't modify some long-held positions, they may be characterized as insensitive or deeply misguided. I am thinking, for example: "The Southern Baptist Convention issued an apology for its earlier stance on slavery. The issue had split the Baptist church between north and south in 1845. But a century and a half later, in 1995, Southern Baptist officials formally renounced the church's support of slavery and segregation". Were they horribly wrong in their interpretation of Christ's law before, or now? And how much intense suffering and death cause before they saw the light...tens of thousands (if not millions) of lives ruined?
I feel for religious institutions and followers regarding what you point out. It cannot be easy and can easily wind up in a rock/hard place, Catch-22 situation.
Take Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart for instance. Snoop gained fame and recognition as a rap artist who arguably glorified gang life/violence, drug use, the objectification of women, etc. Once famous and recognized and with maybe his original career possibly getting stale with younger rappers gaining recognition, or he just wanted to flesh out his career, he now promotes all kinds of mainstream products and co-hosts a cooking show with Martha.
Martha started out with home shows containing home design, cooking, etc. but later wound up in trouble for insider trading. The way these two evolved or devolved, depending on how you look at it and went on to have a mainstream accepted cooking show is more than a little troubling IMO.
But if confronted with the above they could claim "Hey, that's business" or "Any publicity is good publicity in entertainment/show business/etc. Or "Hey, if you don't like it don't watch".
But shouldn't religion be held to a higher standard?
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