When someone says they believe in god or a higher power, what does that translate into? (debate, choice)
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You've hit on a good idea, I've not joined certain organizations because of the religious 'higher power' requirement, and I usually bring a fair amount of ambition and resource to the groups I have joined. I can't possibly be the only one. I mean I wonder how many atheists are Shriners?
I guess I would have to just say, I know there are a lot of things far more 'powerful' that any human, let's start with the wind, the earth, the sun, cosmic radiation, etc. I guess they qualify as a higher power, and most everyone believes they exist, no deity needs be involved to go there for more people to be involved. I see it more a philosophy of surrendering to your own sense of ultimate control over yourself, than believing some magic is going to give you the power to do something you have failed to accomplish, to date.
I really do not think that people on recovery believe in magic. It is, as you say, a surrendering, which has a spiritual resonance. What do you surrender to? If you give up control, who do you give it to? It is a state of ultimate humility. And that is the place to start to begin to build your sense of self that has been totally destroyed by addiction and its consequences. It is not as if the Higher Power is what AA is all about. It is only one aspect of the many other self-building actions and beliefs, but is an important one.
From what I observe in the person closest to me who is active in AA and her friends in the program whom I've met, none of whom are religious, the higher power is more of an undefined concept as opposed to a personification with human characteristics, and at least one would agree with Shirina's assessment that it is psychological.
A woman i know, who is married, 2 beautiful kids, a very wealthy life style, and who has a history of child abuse and incest in her life. She is very damaged and unable to cope with her addiction. She grew up catholic and is now an atheist. She has tried AA but has never been able to stick with it. It is tough being damaged by religion, and equally tough being atheist.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 03-10-2022 at 09:54 AM..
Reason: My own typo in the quote
The original program from which AA evolved was know as The Oxford Group ( I actually knew an old timer from that group).
The Oxford group had what was know as their " absolutes" such as absolute honesty, absolute love etc , if I recall correctly. It was clearly a " religious" group. Bill Wilson who started AA believed the religious aspects of AA were a hindering. As such, AA has no requirement for membership. Only the desire to get sober.
However, it is clearly a " Spiritual " program. It just allows everyone to define their higher power.
If the flying cookie monster is a " higher power" that can help you get ,and STAY sober, that's OK too.
''....they believe in god or a higher power. What does that translate into
in terms of behavior among those people who so self-identify?''
-They could be in prison for murder, rape or robbery or all 3.
-They could be a church/temple goer or not, trying to follow that Golden Rule of treating others as you would yourself...
so very law-abiding, helping neighbors, having a mild temperament, generous with time and money.
-They could be more of a monastic - praying, sitting in contemplation, reading, teaching, meditating.
So believing in a Higher Power, I do not feel, effects a 'believer' in any particular way.
It's the depth of honoring that Higher Power that effects behavior, imo.
Belief? Just belief? Phfft - doesn't mean a darn thing to me.
Their behavior? Could be anything! Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu...
A belief in God could be pushed so far back in their awareness it means near nothing; behaving at the whim of 'any' emotion...anger, jealousy, revenge, pride.
Meaning their ego takes their attention more.
YET, they can still identify as a believer and may say that proudly.
My 2 cents, V. Hope you love it there, down south.
''....they believe in god or a higher power. What does that translate into
in terms of behavior among those people who so self-identify?''
-They could be in prison for murder, rape or robbery or all 3.
-They could be a church/temple goer or not, trying to follow that Golden Rule of treating others as you would yourself...
so very law-abiding, helping neighbors, having a mild temperament, generous with time and money.
-They could be more of a monastic - praying, sitting in contemplation, reading, teaching, meditating.
So believing in a Higher Power, I do not feel, effects a 'believer' in any particular way.
It's the depth of honoring that Higher Power that effects behavior, imo.
Belief? Just belief? Phfft - doesn't mean a darn thing to me.
Their behavior? Could be anything! Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu...
A belief in God could be pushed so far back in their awareness it means near nothing; behaving at the whim of 'any' emotion...anger, jealousy, revenge, pride.
Meaning their ego takes their attention more.
YET, they can still identify as a believer and may say that proudly.
My 2 cents, V. Hope you love it there, down south.
Not quite sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean, but the rest I agree with.
When I was growing up, my father's side of the family pretty much all went to catholic church on a regular basis (except my uncle). Yet I don't remember a single instance of any of those aunts and uncles or my paternal grandmother or grandfather saying a single sentence about religion or 'church stuff' (with the exception of when the old priest was put out to pasture and a new priest came in). Yet, I would have to say that my paternal grandmother and grandfather and aunts and uncles were good people. Was it because of religion? I kinda think not. I think it was just that they were raised to be honest and 'nice'. On my mother's side of the family even more murky. My grandmother (who raised me) was a church goer, but couldn't tell you a single thing that was in the bible, never talked about church stuff (although she was in at least one church group), and couldn't tell you what Reverend Durham talked about in his sermon 20 minutes after the sermon. I always had the sense she thought it was important to go to church, but never connected church with daily behavior. Everyone else on my mother's side just seemed to take it or leave it in regard to going to church. Among all but these relatives (except for one aunt who was legitimately fairly religious, I saw no religious-inspired behavior and heard to talk about religion and what it meant (except for crazy Aunt Millie). The were (mostly) good people, but I couldn't see that it had anything to do with religion. They just were.
And that brings me back to kindergarten...or I should say grades K-3. I was very lucky. My succession of teachers there -- Mrs. Wilson, Miss Cook, Mrs. Redmond, and Miss Smith were -- I think it would be fair to say -- the 'salt of the earth' (and yes, I know, that's a biblical saying). Did they go to church? Yes, to a couple, probably to a couple) since at that time pretty much everyone went to church in our small village. In school did they ever talk about religion? Not a word. Have a picture of Jesus in the classroom? Nope. Ever talk about church? Nope. But they set moral examples, based on what...I don't really know.
On the other hand, throughout my adult life, I have known a number of people that 'talk church' and 'talk religion'...some a lot. And for the most part, I don't see that the life they lead (or led) is (was) anything meritorious...and sometimes definitely not meritorious. My sense is that the really good people I have known have learned their morality from our society, not so much from religion.
BTW, thanks for bringing the thread back to its original intent.
My sense is that the really good people I have known have learned their morality from our society, not so much from religion.
Just so ... and I would add, that makes perfect sense, because morality is the ever-evolving societal consensus of what is helpful or harmful to civil society as generally understood. It is not handed down from somewhere on high.
Given that, even religions cannot stray very far from the societal consensus, or they would be sanctioned as ... wait for it ... immoral.
That is why religions evolve -- slowly, discretely, and always a generation or two behind that societal consensus, so that they can maintain the fiction that they the never-changing bedrock of morality and are working against societal rot.
It used to be for example that evangelicals railed against things like skirts above the ankles, radio, dancing, and other quaint things that seem like really odd hills to die on now, and that modern evangelicals regularly partake in without a second thought.
Mark my words (and I call on thee, oh mighty Wayback Machine, to store these words for some hapless evangelical in the year 2082), the things that conservative religious folk fulminate about today (gays, who uses which bathroom, and "libruhls" who are not even remotely liberal by global standards, etc) will not be given a second thought two generations hence.
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You've hit on a good idea, I've not joined certain organizations because of the religious 'higher power' requirement, and I usually bring a fair amount of ambition and resource to the groups I have joined. I can't possibly be the only one. I mean I wonder how many atheists are Shriners?
