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Self confidence and awareness does not necessarily reduce or negate spiritual quests, but does lead to approaching things from a different angle/path, or entering from the backdoor. It also more readily leads to personally designed/customized/hybrid spirituality over stock beliefs and/or institutions.
I think maybe I have not explained my point well. It was not about people who have self confidence and awareness, it was about the people I know who do not have these qualities and seek spiritual paths.
I think I'd be a bit more thorough in my curiosity; specifically, would the percentage of people relying on religion CHANGE (Up OR Down) with better mental health support. As your premise is predisposed to a bias outcome and therefore would have an elevated proclivity to omitting some data.
Yes you are right. The question should be how it would change, up or down.
My speculation is that the change would be towards people being less religious (but that is just speculation). My argument for my speculation is that one reason for people to be religious would have been removed, with supporting anecdotes in the OP (however I understand anecdotes are not as reliable as tested evidence). However other reasons for people being religious will remain, so many people would still remain religious.
My suggestion for testing this - look for a correlation between the mental health support system and religious prevalence in countries.
I can't imagine how you can have so thoroughly come to doubt your own experiences just because there are times when they have been shown to be unreliable in others with mental issues. I doubt mere perceptual illusions would be sufficient to cause such ubiquitous self-doubt.
Seems in conflict with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You seem to forget that you are talking to a PhD trained Social Pschologist who literally created the instruments and study designs you rely on. I know all the quirks of human perception and yet I fo not have such an unreasonable doubt about my ability to interpret my experiences. Your self-doubt is not reasonable.
Yes you are right. The question should be how it would change, up or down.
My speculation is that the change would be towards people being less religious (but that is just speculation). My argument for my speculation is that one reason for people to be religious would have been removed, with supporting anecdotes in the OP (however I understand anecdotes are not as reliable as tested evidence). However other reasons for people being religious will remain, so many people would still remain religious.
My suggestion for testing this - look for a correlation between the mental health support system and religious prevalence in countries.
There are several other possibilities, or contributing factors that could easily be missed if you were looking for the needle to stay the same or ONLY move away from religion. One important one, could be that for some people religion is a mechanism, or balancing element to their particular 'wiring' and some might turn to religion as they explored their mental health. I think understanding the relationship would be interesting to observe, along with categorizing the factors, coupled with variants of what might be deemed good 'mental health'.
I find it slight surprising the aversion by some to the possibility of their perceptions being wrong. Surely someone with self-awareness must understand the possibility of their perceptions being wrong, and that they themselves are not best suited to detect the mis-perception. They may not have a way to verify their perception, and hence think it is best to trust their perceptions which is fine. But surely they must also realise that the trust is blind to a point.
Have they never though "I know what species of bird that is" only to later find out they were wrong? Or "I know the answer to that question" only to later find out they were wrong? I certainly have thought I knew things, that it turned out were wrong. Surely the same is true for you, and for others.
That is interesting.
I don't believe there's a god. I know I could be wrong.
I believe in past-lives. I know I could be wrong.
I thought I was right when I was a catholic. Now I believe I was wrong.
The close friend who let me to catholicism now says he was wrong and I need to become born again.
We had a poster here the other day (forget who), who said he had been an atheist for most of his adult life, but now says he was wrong.
There are several other possibilities, or contributing factors that could easily be missed if you were looking for the needle to stay the same or ONLY move away from religion. One important one, could be that for some people religion is a mechanism, or balancing element to their particular 'wiring' and some might turn to religion as they explored their mental health. I think understanding the relationship would be interesting to observe, along with categorizing the factors, coupled with variants of what might be deemed good 'mental health'.
Yes it would be interesting to explore the idea even deeper, including the impact on different types of people/personalities. Though practically that may be harder to get data on.
One thing I have previously mentioned in this thread, but has not been replied to much, is better mental health tools being taught to children in schools from when they are young. So I would be interested in what impact that has. For example how would that affect their 'wiring' growing up?
I don't believe there's a god. I know I could be wrong.
I believe in past-lives. I know I could be wrong.
I thought I was right when I was a catholic. Now I believe I was wrong.
The close friend who let me to catholicism now says he was wrong and I need to become born again.
We had a poster here the other day (forget who), who said he had been an atheist for most of his adult life, but now says he was wrong.
Indeed. Interestingly there is a poster who seems to be unable to comprehend even the possibility they might be wrong, despite openly admitting they were wrong in the past (according to their experience). Strange!
The keywords in my response were UNREASONABLE DOUBT. I know all the reasons for doubt, but I also recognize that they do not necessarily apply to all our experiences across the board. Perhaps a lack of knowledge of the specific conditions under which they should create doubt is the issue with such unrestrained doubt in one's own experiences and perceptions.
I have no stock beliefs. The beliefs I do have are well thought out, reasoned, understood, and are part of me.
One might consider the background and nature of a belief when assessing if it is "stock".
A. Completely original belief generated by oneself.
B. An un original belief not conjured and/or commandeered by a major religious institution one considers independently prior to accepting.
C. An un original belief conjured and/or commandeered by a major religious institution one either considers independently prior to acceptance or accepts blindly.
Then there's hybrid/modified beliefs that are an individually crafted/adapted take on an un original belief. Which would be very trendy considering craft beer/craft cider/craft just about everything these days. "Craft Religion/Belief"... Why not?....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter600
I find it slight surprising the aversion by some to the possibility of their perceptions being wrong. Surely someone with self-awareness must understand the possibility of their perceptions being wrong, and that they themselves are not best suited to detect the mis-perception. They may not have a way to verify their perception, and hence think it is best to trust their perceptions which is fine. But surely they must also realise that the trust is blind to a point.
Have they never though "I know what species of bird that is" only to later find out they were wrong? Or "I know the answer to that question" only to later find out they were wrong? I certainly have thought I knew things, that it turned out were wrong. Surely the same is true for you, and for others.
This is faith, and maybe should be considered independently from spirituality. What you are describing is blind faith IMO. Some people may need to immerse themselves in blind faith to be able to function in their lives, possibly not being able to cope without a firm and unwavering belief in a better hereafter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
I think maybe I have not explained my point well. It was not about people who have self confidence and awareness, it was about the people I know who do not have these qualities and seek spiritual paths.
Indeed. Interestingly there is a poster who seems to be unable to comprehend even the possibility they might be wrong, despite openly admitting they were wrong in the past (according to their experience). Strange!
I agree with your point.
If you are referring to me, Peter, you are missing a few data points. My prior view of Reality at the time was based entirely on materialism as pragmatic and unshakable as that of any atheist today because that is all that was even remotely reasonable for me to consider part of Reality.
This is why the encounter was so earth-shattering and disruptive to my sane, sober, and rational view of Reality. The encounter was also a sane, sober experience of an unmistakable but thoroughly unfamiliar and indescribable Reality that did not resemble the only one I knew.
I was not under the effect of ANY drug or substance. I certainly had no unconscious or conscious bias or desire to believe, or even imagine, let alone confirm that a God existed. And I had years of experience in sober conscious control of altered states and had developed a reliable technique for distinguishing what was from my own unconscious, or what was a dream state.
My knowledge of the possible alternative reasons for such an unexpected mental experience is and was extensive. But I could discern no basis for doubting or dismissing it and no reason to distrust its reality. There still isn't and I have acquired significant scientific knowledge and extrapolated hypotheses that support the plausibility of its authenticity.
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