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I am not arguing that religion is a necessary ingredient for misogyny, but that it is one (of several) catalysts for it. In large part because much of religion, being ancient in origin, does not reflect the most enlightened possible thinking, and in regards to women, is often in fact rooted in patriarchal thinking.
Religion also often claims to embody a superior morality, and so we have every right to hold it to a higher standard in that regard. If it is the origin and protector of morality itself, as conservative Christians have it, then we should expect it to be morally elevated with respect to (and with respect FOR) women.
On the Politics forum I made the comment that if Christians were more like Geeki that would constitute proof that there was something there. In reality they are no more likely to display the fruitage of the Spirit than anyone else.
I am not arguing that religion is a necessary ingredient for misogyny, but that it is one (of several) catalysts for it. In large part because much of religion, being ancient in origin, does not reflect the most enlightened possible thinking, and in regards to women, is often in fact rooted in patriarchal thinking.
Religion also often claims to embody a superior morality, and so we have every right to hold it to a higher standard in that regard. If it is the origin and protector of morality itself, as conservative Christians have it, then we should expect it to be morally elevated with respect to (and with respect FOR) women.
Misogyny is older than any religion. It is a basic animal instinct. It is the fear of the perceived power that women posses, be it granting access to their bodies, or the endowed power of popping out little men, the future warriors. Religion when it formed was organized by men as well, and naturally imbued with fear of women. You hate what your fear and have the need to control it by any means.
There was NO enlightenment thinking about women until women demanded their rights as fully formed human beings. The latest shameful "opinion" by Alito on women's autonomy over their own bodies, and his desire to take women back to the 17th century, is not due to any religion. It is pure contempt and hatred of women and their bodies. Nothing has changed or will until women demand it.
Religion does not claim anything. Religion merely organizes a community with codes of conduct. When controlled by men religion becomes a tool in their hands. The poor, the out castes, and women have all resisted orthodoxy and charted their own paths to spirituality. Buddha is only the more famous example although he was himself was of royalty. His resistance was to the Brhaminical orthodoxy and the power they wielded.
Religion is a pathway to spirituality by means of proper conduct of one's life. People can corrupt it.
Misogyny is older than any religion. It is a basic animal instinct. It is the fear of the perceived power that women posses, be it granting access to their bodies, or the endowed power of popping out little men, the future warriors. Religion when it formed was organized by men as well, and naturally imbued with fear of women. You hate what your fear and have the need to control it by any means.
There was NO enlightenment thinking about women until women demanded their rights as fully formed human beings. The latest shameful "opinion" by Alito on women's autonomy over their own bodies, and his desire to take women back to the 17th century, is not due to any religion. It is pure contempt and hatred of women and their bodies. Nothing has changed or will until women demand it.
Religion does not claim anything. Religion merely organizes a community with codes of conduct. When controlled by men religion becomes a tool in their hands. The poor, the out castes, and women have all resisted orthodoxy and charted their own paths to spirituality. Buddha is only the more famous example although he was himself was of royalty. His resistance was to the Brhaminical orthodoxy and the power they wielded.
Religion is a pathway to spirituality by means of proper conduct of one's life. People can corrupt it.
Your experience with religion is different than mine. Many absolutely say that women are in subjection to men. On the Christians forum there is a guy who said he would leave his church if they ever allowed a woman to give a sermon. That is consistent with my experience even tho he is from a different sect.
Your experience with religion is different than mine. Many absolutely say that women are in subjection to men. On the Christians forum there is a guy who said he would leave his church if they ever allowed a woman to give a sermon. That is consistent with my experience even tho he is from a different sect.
She does not want religion to accept any responsibility for being as enlightened as they claim to be, so as to rise above these primitive / primal fears of women and the promotion of patriarchy. I am not sure why.
As Jesus said, there must of necessity be harms in the world, but woe to him by whom they come.
She does not want religion to accept any responsibility for being as enlightened as they claim to be, so as to rise above these primitive / primal fears of women and the promotion of patriarchy. I am not sure why.
As Jesus said, there must of necessity be harms in the world, but woe to him by whom they come.
The religious are her ingroup. She acknowledges that religion can be used to discriminate against women but grossly understates the problem. Let one atheist say something dumb ass about women and watch her apply that to all atheists.
I just thought of something that would present a problem. CB, what do you make of the fact that the majority of atheists also lean left?
Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 05-19-2022 at 04:02 PM..
Reason: Include source
The religious are her ingroup. She acknowledges that religion can be used to discriminate against women but grossly understates the problem. Let one atheist say something dumb ass about women and watch her apply that to all atheists.
I just thought of something that would present a problem. CB, what do you make of the fact that the majority of atheists also lean left?
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
A couple of weeks back she was complaining about atheists and trying to get a brigade going against us. Now, she's in the atheist subform.
Were’nt you just complaining about my encroaching into this special forum for “special†people?
Now you want my opinion?
Nyet. I dont think so.
One concept that was brought up was misogyny exists as long as men exist. What that leaves out is the possibility of prejudices against females by other females, because the term does not explicitly state that only men can do this.
Can religion be held accountable for the perpetuation of misogyny? In some ways, yes. But to dismantle the structure that upholds it, the original claim that led to the mistreatment of women should be questioned. Many times this claim comes from a holy book which is supposedly the word of a god and many times the claim is interwoven into other parts of the book, that without the prejudices against women, certain necessary events wouldn't have occurred.
How did this original claim or point of view about the inferiority of women occur? Why would it be applied to all women instead of just one? So long as humans exist, the possibility of misogyny remains; that is no question. When it does rear its head, is it part of the character of the person, part of the environment, or both? I would start with the environment first because no man is an island. In other words, a single idea of a person does not passively invade the minds of others. There had to be a reason why it was accepted in the first place. That is why religion often gets blamed because it can provide the environment to plant the seed of prejudice and be supported by those who follow it. That doesn't necessarily mean dismantling the religion. What that could mean is to provide alternative perspectives and ways of solving problems which are often done through education if the educational system itself has not been touched by the same thought process.
One concept that was brought up was misogyny exists as long as men exist. What that leaves out is the possibility of prejudices against females by other females, because the term does not explicitly state that only men can do this.
Prejudice exists as well, and it has no limit or boundaries, be it men against men or women against women and all other permutations. Women are neither goddesses nor devils. Just human.
However misogyny, like racism, is not just prejudice but the power to act and enforce punishing laws, limitations, and exploitation on the bodies of women, and black people by whites. To call out reverse racism or misandry just adds to the insult because women and black people have never held such a power as white men do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
Can religion be held accountable for the perpetuation of misogyny? In some ways, yes. But to dismantle the structure that upholds it, the original claim that led to the mistreatment of women should be questioned. Many times this claim comes from a holy book which is supposedly the word of a god and many times the claim is interwoven into other parts of the book, that without the prejudices against women, certain necessary events wouldn't have occurred.
Fair point. And because they are interwoven into the holy books it carries an authority that is hard to refute.
On the other hand the same religious texts carry the notion of a boundary-less divinity that resides within all beings; and firm assertion that this divinity is who we are in essence and there is no two.
Women, and men who have been exploited due to class, caste or color or race, sexual orientation, have made the choice to embrace the latter and reject the orthodoxy of the former, and have followed their own spiritual pursuit, outside of the community. They have even founded their own religions. In other words they lost faith in the texts, in the rites and worship, but not in the divinity that sustained them in their effort. This has happened in all religions, often with persecution and even death. Religions bend and reform because ofpeople of faith. Rarely happens by the organization which hates to cede power. So blaming religion as a whole is meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
How did this original claim or point of view about the inferiority of women occur? Why would it be applied to all women instead of just one? So long as humans exist, the possibility of misogyny remains; that is no question. When it does rear its head, is it part of the character of the person, part of the environment, or both? .
Bolded: It is human nature to exploit when possible. Greed is a powerful force. Reform and evolution also comes from the same humans. Religion is a gateway for both. Religion does nothing, it merely gives a framework to organize a community with codes of conduct so we can learn to be nice to each other, if only for the purpose of protecting our our won back. Thus the golden rule.
But real reform, real inner revolution, only comes from human spirit. Because we ARE divinity itself.
I did not know misogyny is an Atheist thing. Now I know.
As you well know all forums are open to post.
You really do not read what others actually posts. L8 did not tell you that you cannot post but that you complained about atheists posting in the R&S forum. And now you are claiming that misognomy is an atheist thing because...... Right under no grounds but you bigotry against atheists. Or do you simply post to rile others up and not believe what you write?
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