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Good point. Mental illness is often associated with those who have visions or believe they’ve had some sort of personal experience with a god or transcendental/out-of-body experience. There are also charlatans and psychics who believe (or expect us to believe) such as well.
Would you accept their ‘experiences’ at face value?
If people tell me they are having a particular experience, I take for granted that they are telling the truth about it. However, I don't feel obligated to agree with them about the meaning of their experience.
And I certainly wouldn't tell them that they are not, in fact, having that experience. That's just dumb, and highly unlikely to add to my own credibility. Also, it flat out doesn't work, if your goal is to try to get them to think about other explanations for their experience. Which is what mental health personnel, in the hospital and out, spend about 80% of their time doing.
What I stated relative to the conclusion (you’ve drawn) is your ‘experience’ in and of itself; you have no evidence a ‘transcendent experience’ occurred, only that you perceived it as such and/or you’re trying to sell it. It isn’t a fact.
You don’t have them, either; you just think you do.;-) That’s the crux of the point relative to the thread.
I love good macaroni and cheese, and you do too. If you believe you do not like (good) macaroni and cheese, you just think you do not.
Weren't you the dude that was arguing he wasn't an atheist a ways back because he didn't believe in God but also couldn't say for sure no God existed?
The existence of a god can neither be proven or disproven conclusively; hence, I may have stated it’s nonsensical, from my perspective, to continually debate such, as we can’t change folks’ perceptions, beliefs, faith and whatnot (and they have the right to believe in what they want). That said, obviously, I’m an atheist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
Also, it flat out doesn't work, if your goal is to try to get them to think about other explanations for their experience.
I’m not trying to force you, L8Gr8, Mystic (or anyone) to think differently about their beliefs or experiences associated with such. To the contrary, they can have at it (per my previous point/reply, above).
I’m merely stating (again) a ‘transcendent experience’ is not demonstrable fact and has no relevance in re: circumstantial (or any kind of) evidence. Yet, a few folks (such as yourself) continually (and nonsensically) argue (and compare notes) over the validity of your/their ‘experiences’ in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
Are you saying that because you don't have them, they don't exist?
Do you believe you are somehow special because you do? All of us perceive things differently relative to our subconscious minds (and the stored information therein) as well as the altering of our senses at any given time.
At the end of the day, what you have is your belief/perception; and I’m not interested in buying it. What’s the problem with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayle White
I love good macaroni and cheese, and you do too. If you believe you do not like good macaroni and cheese, you just think you do not.
It’s also a matter of perception if one considers macaroni and cheese to be ‘good’ or not.
The existence of a god can neither be proven or disproven conclusively; hence, I may have stated it’s nonsensical, from my perspective, to continually debate such, as we can’t change folks’ perceptions, beliefs, faith and whatnot (and they have the right to believe in what they want). That said, obviously, I’m an atheist.
I’m not trying to force you, L8Gr8, Mystic (or anyone) to think differently about their beliefs or experiences associated with such. To the contrary, they can have at it (per my previous point/reply, above).
I’m merely stating (again) a ‘transcendent experience’ is not demonstrable fact and has no relevance in re: circumstantial (or any kind of) evidence. Yet, a few folks (such as yourself) continually (and nonsensically) argue (and compare notes) over the validity of your/their ‘experiences’ in this thread.
Do you believe you are somehow special because you do? All of us perceive things differently relative to our subconscious minds (and the stored information therein) as well as the altering of our senses at any given time.
At the end of the day, what you have is your belief/perception; and I’m not interested in buying it. What’s the problem with that?
It’s also a matter of perception if one considers macaroni and cheese to be ‘good’ or not.
Okay. You love macaroni and cheese, and if you believe you do not, you are mistaking yourself.
And if you did, what would be your reaction and what would you do about it? That was my original question that you dodged. Wanna try again?
You want me to speculate on how I might react if someone may have said something about something that they may or may not have had any prior knowledge of that apparently occurred when they were in an unconscious state, as told by someone else???
Im simply asking out of curiosity what non believers do with new information that suggests a god exists, even if it is circumstantial and anecdotal.
The article I stumbled across today was about a kid who was severely injured in a car wreck at about 8 yrs old that killed his dad instantly and landed him in a coma with life threatening injuries. According to medical records he had to be revived 2-3 times. The pics of him on the hospital bed are horrific. He still has bad facial scars as an adult.
To the point, during some of his NDEs, he claims to have met his dead dad in heaven, along with 2 "siblings" who both died in miscarriages before birth ( hence the quotation marks around siblings). He had apparently never been told about the miscarriages that occurred before his birth. And he told his mom he knew his dad was dead because he met him in heaven.
So, as a nonbeliever, how do you process this sort of claim?
I'm agnostic, not an atheist, for the record.
I don't find this sort of story compelling for several reasons. Firstly, unless someone recorded his "testimony" immediately upon awaking from the accident, there's no reason to think the NDE occurred at all, let alone as he describes it. This is not to say he must be lying - in times of confusion our brains often fill-in-the-blanks with confabulation, and our memories are revised subtly each time we revisit them. He would have just suffered a massive head trauma and would have been on all kinds of medication, a perfect recipe for both hallucination and imperfect memory formation.
Secondly, we're often aware of things we aren't officially aware of. He may have seen his father die or heard it while he in the coma and processed the info on some level prior to becoming conscious. (Or simply inferred it based on the severity of the accident.) He may have at some time in his early childhood overheard or observed something related to the miscarriages. Experiences can stir up memories and our brains can remix them in interesting ways.
The existence of a god can neither be proven or disproven conclusively; hence, I may have stated it’s nonsensical, from my perspective, to continually debate such, as we can’t change folks’ perceptions, beliefs, faith and whatnot (and they have the right to believe in what they want). That said, obviously, I’m an atheist.
I’m not trying to force you, L8Gr8, Mystic (or anyone) to think differently about their beliefs or experiences associated with such. To the contrary, they can have at it (per my previous point/reply, above).
I’m merely stating (again) a ‘transcendent experience’ is not demonstrable fact and has no relevance in re: circumstantial (or any kind of) evidence. Yet, a few folks (such as yourself) continually (and nonsensically) argue (and compare notes) over the validity of your/their ‘experiences’ in this thread.
Do you believe you are somehow special because you do? All of us perceive things differently relative to our subconscious minds (and the stored information therein) as well as the altering of our senses at any given time.
At the end of the day, what you have is your belief/perception; and I’m not interested in buying it. What’s the problem with that?
It’s also a matter of perception if one considers macaroni and cheese to be ‘good’ or not.
Mystic is there only one of us three stating that these experiences tell us something about reality.
I’m merely stating (again) a ‘transcendent experience’ is not demonstrable fact and has no relevance in re: circumstantial (or any kind of) evidence. Yet, a few folks (such as yourself) continually (and nonsensically) argue (and compare notes) over the validity of your/their ‘experiences’ in this thread.
So what? YOUR mental experience right this second is not a demonstrable fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
Do you believe you are somehow special because you do?
No. As I have said repeatedly, I think these experiences are totally within the normal range of human internal experiences, no deities necessary. Why would I feel special about having a completely normal internal human experience?
How many times do I need to say it before it sinks in?
As I have said repeatedly, I think these experiences are totally within the normal range of human internal experiences, no deities necessary. Why would I feel special about having a completely normal internal human experience?
I never implied your perception isn’t ‘normal’, only that perception varies based in re: subconscious thought/stored information, as a whole. As such, and as I’ve stated repeatedly, ‘transcendent experiences’ don’t have anything to do with circumstantial evidence, per the thread, as one must first have demonstrable fact(s) in which to base a logical and reasonable inference.
In other words, it isn’t about you or your transcendent experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
How many times do I need to say it before it sinks in?
I agree.:-)
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I have absolutely zero doubt about it!
