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all the instances of rock throwing at trees by chimps, occur only at hollow trees.
"Chimps that throw stones at trees and let the rocks accumulate at the base do so because they like the sound it makes—not because the trees are sacred and hitting them with stones is part of an unexplained ritual, as had been previously suggested."
"A team of scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Germany, has carried out experiments suggesting the chimps select which trees to throw rocks at based on their acoustic properties. The team believes the behavior relates to communication, rather than any ritualistic practice. Findings showed the chimps were selecting trees based on the sound they made when the stones hit them—the sounds produced had energies concentrated at lower frequencies, meaning the sound would linger for longer in the environment. The team also found that surrounding trees were similar in terms of their bark and size, but did not produce the same sound. These trees were not selected as stone-throwing targets, giving further evidence chimps were choosing trees based on their acoustic properties."
from Newsweek Science article, Chimps Throw Rocks at Trees Because of the Sound It Makes, Not Because It's a Sacred Ritual
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-04-2022 at 08:25 AM..
There was an interesting article on the Atheist Republic EMail today, someone pointed out something that many of us had been aware of, but never discussed on here (to my limited cat knowledge).....
many ancient writings , including some in the Torah and Bible, point to a fact that ancient people did not know that the brain was responsible for thinking and action.....they believed, probably based on dreams (which they did not understand due to lack of knowledge about neurology) that thoughts were sent to their minds from outside sources....spirits, gods, deities, lost relatives....etc.....
This is still seen today when someone says "Oh God Spoke to me and....." or "Well the Devil tempted me...."
Today, based on our knowledge and understanding of science, we atheists understand that our thoughts are ours alone...and our actions are our responsibility. While we may be inspired by outside sources, we know, ultimately that our brains generate our thoughts, our ideas, and our dreams. We follow what we know and if we make a mistake, an error, no it is not some grave sin, it is just our human mind.....and we own up to it. We do not blame a deity, a demon or any other mythical creature for it
There was an interesting article on the Atheist Republic EMail today, someone pointed out something that many of us had been aware of, but never discussed on here (to my limited cat knowledge).....
many ancient writings , including some in the Torah and Bible, point to a fact that ancient people did not know that the brain was responsible for thinking and action.....they believed, probably based on dreams (which they did not understand due to lack of knowledge about neurology) that thoughts were sent to their minds from outside sources....spirits, gods, deities, lost relatives....etc.....
This is still seen today when someone says "Oh God Spoke to me and....." or "Well the Devil tempted me...."
Today, based on our knowledge and understanding of science, we atheists understand that our thoughts are ours alone...and our actions are our responsibility. While we may be inspired by outside sources, we know, ultimately that our brains generate our thoughts, our ideas, and our dreams. We follow what we know and if we make a mistake, an error, no it is not some grave sin, it is just our human mind.....and we own up to it. We do not blame a deity, a demon or any other mythical creature for it
Depending on the era of these writings that is interesting in the context of Jayne's theory of the bicameral mind, which states that prior to an epigenetic shift (IIRC around the 3rd millennium BC, and prompted by the transition to agriculture from hunter-gatherer society, thus increasing the need to cooperate), this is exactly how most people experienced reality, more as a series of messages from various spirits (dead ancestors, spirits inhabiting various objects and regions, etc) and these were received primarily as auditory hallucinations. After the theorized epigenetic shift, these voices were subsumed into our unconscious and became our intuition or interior dialog but it is far less "real" to us now. What survives of this is much less functional and is only seen in people considered mentally unwell.
Unfortunately this is not a scientifically valid (falsifiable) theory, it is more something that might explain people's thinking and motivations in the Long Ago to the satisfaction of a historian, if not to a scientist. It fits with a lot of what is known about history and ancient literature. But it could also be post hoc rationalizations. We may well never know the truth of it. But I have always found Jayne's theories interesting in that there's no reason we should assume that everyone has always had a similar mental landscape / configuration to what we now consider to be typical. Or for that matter, that this thinking mode has only changed once before.
Depending on the era of these writings that is interesting in the context of Jayne's theory of the bicameral mind, which states that prior to an epigenetic shift (IIRC around the 3rd millennium BC, and prompted by the transition to agriculture from hunter-gatherer society, thus increasing the need to cooperate), this is exactly how most people experienced reality, more as a series of messages from various spirits (dead ancestors, spirits inhabiting various objects and regions, etc) and these were received primarily as auditory hallucinations. After the theorized epigenetic shift, these voices were subsumed into our unconscious and became our intuition or interior dialog but it is far less "real" to us now. What survives of this is much less functional and is only seen in people considered mentally unwell.
Unfortunately this is not a scientifically valid (falsifiable) theory, it is more something that might explain people's thinking and motivations in the Long Ago to the satisfaction of a historian, if not to a scientist. It fits with a lot of what is known about history and ancient literature. But it could also be post hoc rationalizations. We may well never know the truth of it. But I have always found Jayne's theories interesting in that there's no reason we should assume that everyone has always had a similar mental landscape / configuration to what we now consider to be typical. Or for that matter, that this thinking mode has only changed once before.
The scientifically valid truth is that each generation has a different mental configuration/landscape from the previous ones via epigenetic processes. The bicameral aspect of Jayne's theory relies on an undiscoverable assumption that the corpus callosum was smaller and less comprehensive. This made communication between the two hemispheres less effective. We essentially lived as right-brained animals with our left brain (thoughts) representing a God who communicated with us.
There was an interesting article on the Atheist Republic EMail today, someone pointed out something that many of us had been aware of, but never discussed on here (to my limited cat knowledge).....
many ancient writings , including some in the Torah and Bible, point to a fact that ancient people did not know that the brain was responsible for thinking and action.....they believed, probably based on dreams (which they did not understand due to lack of knowledge about neurology) that thoughts were sent to their minds from outside sources....spirits, gods, deities, lost relatives....etc.....
This is still seen today when someone says "Oh God Spoke to me and....." or "Well the Devil tempted me...."
Today, based on our knowledge and understanding of science, we atheists understand that our thoughts are ours alone...and our actions are our responsibility. While we may be inspired by outside sources, we know, ultimately that our brains generate our thoughts, our ideas, and our dreams. We follow what we know and if we make a mistake, an error, no it is not some grave sin, it is just our human mind.....and we own up to it. We do not blame a deity, a demon or any other mythical creature for it
my observation is that how people think and what people understand in a given era or time period, is not based on whether they are atheists or believers. I don't believe it is accurate to say that atheists think this way or believers think that way. Not all atheists think the same way regarding their beliefs in the supernatural.
regarding the "supernatural phenomena" mentioned in the post above above such as spirits, lost relatives, demons; research studies show that "Atheists still believe in the supernatural." Kent University research indicates, "Atheists and agnostics still believe in supernatural phenomena despite not believing in gods." The BBC reports in 2019, "Around three-quarters of atheists and nine out of 10 agnostics are open to the existence of supernatural phenomena, including everything from astrology to supernatural beings and life after death." In 2020, research data shows that, "In the USA 18% of atheists believe that ghosts exist, and 23% of agnostics believe that demons exist. 10% of atheists believe that demons exist, and 35% of agnostics believe that ghosts exist. "
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-07-2022 at 09:24 PM..
There was an interesting article on the Atheist Republic EMail today, someone pointed out something that many of us had been aware of, but never discussed on here (to my limited cat knowledge).....
many ancient writings , including some in the Torah and Bible, point to a fact that ancient people did not know that the brain was responsible for thinking and action.....they believed, probably based on dreams (which they did not understand due to lack of knowledge about neurology) that thoughts were sent to their minds from outside sources....spirits, gods, deities, lost relatives....etc.....
This is still seen today when someone says "Oh God Spoke to me and....." or "Well the Devil tempted me...."
Today, based on our knowledge and understanding of science, we atheists understand that our thoughts are ours alone...and our actions are our responsibility. While we may be inspired by outside sources, we know, ultimately that our brains generate our thoughts, our ideas, and our dreams. We follow what we know and if we make a mistake, an error, no it is not some grave sin, it is just our human mind.....and we own up to it. We do not blame a deity, a demon or any other mythical creature for it
Yes, even Aristotle thought the heart was responsible for our thoughts. It was not until after he died that Herophilos showed it was the brain that was responsible, and that certain parts of the brain was responsible for different thought processes.
Unfortunately the works by Herophilos were lost, so we do not know his thoughts on dreams.
The scientifically valid truth is that each generation has a different mental configuration/landscape from the previous ones via epigenetic processes. The bicameral aspect of Jayne's theory relies on an undiscoverable assumption that the corpus callosum was smaller and less comprehensive. This made communication between the two hemispheres less effective. We essentially lived as right-brained animals with our left brain (thoughts) representing a God who communicated with us.
Interesting. I was aware that our brains are to some extent actually two brains via observations of split brain patients where the corpus callosum has been severed.
It is plausible that the right hemisphere could be experienced as a submerged consciousness given limited bandwidth in the corpus callosum. Actual speech is controlled by the left hemisphere in Broca's area, so the theory of the split brain is that the left hemisphere acts as the gatekeeper for communicating thoughts and the right hemisphere must "ask permission" to share something. It's all a theory, but there have been observations of split brain patients where the right hemisphere "disobeys" spoken intentions via motor control of the left side of the body.
A less robust hemispheric communication channel could produce the schizotypal behavior mordant described. (Which sounds frankly terrifying to be a primitive person surrounded by others experiencing hallucinations commonly, and experiencing them yourself.) I'm not sure if schizotypal behavior is considered a disorder of hemispheric communication but I seem to remember hearing that people with schizophrenia have less effective corpora callosa.
I guess almost everybody believed in religions or gods / god back then. It must have been exteremely rare to be otherwise.
No, there were lots of Atheists.
They just didn't publicly profess it because it was a crime punishable by death, and even when you weren't executed you got tortured or had your land and all assets confiscated or you were outcast and not allowed to work or live anywhere.
As pointed out by Christopher Hitchens in god is Not Great, Psa. 14:1 is a remarkable observation:
”The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'”
So centuries ago, there were individuals who didn't believe in god/God.
Except that it isn't clear if such people literally said such things, or if it's just a hypothetical reminding the faithful to quash whatever doubts they may be having.
But your point still holds, I think, because if the psalmist bothered to mention it, then doubting god's existence was still back then, at the very least, an existential threat to religious faith, just as it is today.
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