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OK, let's posit that there is something like a personality at the heart of the universe. Now I don't like calling it god, because that is such a weighted word, and everyone assumes they know what you mean when you say it. Therefore, today I'm going to call it ralph. I've also been known to call it hepzibah, because why not? (I'm pretty sure ralph doesn't care what we call it.)
So what can we say about ralph, judging from the universe?
First of all, ralph is literally inhuman, so attributing human(ish) emotions to it is a very far stretch indeed. Best to assume it doesn't - occam's razor.
What does ralph value? Change and recycling. ralph really will let you turn lead into gold. All you need is energy.
Also, ralph values biodiversity. But ralph does not value individual life, at either the cellular or the organism level. We know this because ralph has made a world where every cell/organism, sooner or later, is eaten by some other cell/organism, and ralph cares not about the emotions of the soon-to-be-eaten. Or at least, ralph doesn't care enough to do anything about it.
What else can be said about ralph?
That he behaves as though he's totally oblivious to our existence.
When I was interested in the golden age of spiritualism (1850-1930) I read several books by writers from that era talking about life on the spiritual plane and how spirits gets reincarnated. Anyway, I recall one writers mentioning that earth is the garbage dumping yard of the universe--that there are billions of planets with more advanced, more benevolent life forms out there and that in the recycling of souls those that led selfish evil lives elsewhere in the universe got reincarnated on earth. Fitting sentiment if you believe in this nonsense but at the time, when you look around at how human beings behave here it seems a most appropriate conclusion.
Thrill is speaking in the context of Christianity and its truth claims. The Christian god is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, which sweeps away all the philosophical arguments you are making. There is no universe too big for the Christian god to manage with the most insignificant fraction of his attention. So the righteous can still be blessed and the wicked confounded, no matter how many of them there are an no matter how complicated the causal chains.
If the lavish and specific promises of the Christian scriptures weren't in play, we'd be having a different conversation. You are discussing more of a deist, non-interventionist god, the create-it-and-walk-away type of god, which is a different conversation. To that sort of god I ask: how would you ever tell the difference between:
A non-interventionist god
An indifferent god
A non-existent god
...because they all behave exactly the same from the life perspective of his created beings.
I have no skin in the game when it comes to any religiously inspired god. I believe the god or gods depicted in these accounts, are likely inspired by their own interpretation of god, at a period of time where they merged their beliefs and values of the times into these religions. I don't find it a timeless interpretation to be honest and it naws at its credibility. It seems to be laden with shame and guilt for things that are natural, even beautiful to our being. Now I should qualify this with Christianity as I am more familiar with it than others. I think i'd likely see similarities with other but i'll park them for now, but essentially, I think we see more of what they thought god would be, rather than what he may actually be.
To address these
A non-interventionist god - he may have intervened to create the universe. There could be intervention and inspiration elsewhere, its just subtle to us. Not based on our expectations.
An indifferent god - We have the tools and ability to make the best of what we have. To progress not only as free thinking individuals, but to mold our world to something better as a civilization. I'm not sure this makes him indifferent if he were around - just certainly not an on demand micro manager. A gentle guide and a source of hope to those that feel it. He may be protecting us from a gamma ray burst though
A non-existent god - I have always accepted that this could be reality. We have no clue if the universe began or has always existed but a non creating god can't be discounted. I believe however in the possibility that there is a god behind this - i wouldn't go so far as to say I know he is. I have also stated that I am living my life as this is the only one I will ever have. I'm also open to the fact that even though there are horrors and chaos to the universe, in our lives, there are also so many wonderful, beautiful things to be inspired by. That maybe there is a conductor to this orchestra. Its not in your face but behind the scenes. On the aggregate, is this enough for one to believe in the possibility of some divine force behind this or not - entirely an individual thing but i'd never go so far as to say I have a direct relationship with god and I know he exists. In truth, i'm not sure any of us really know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
Or at least, ralph doesn't care enough to do anything about it.
What else can be said about ralph?
Jacqueg - I respect your thought process here but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water - We don't know if Ralph doesn't care. We have much to be inspired by. Perhaps this is what he wants for us to take hold of - As long as we don't do this as individuals and as a species, this is ours to wear, not necessarily his. Lets replace intervention with inspiration. Perhaps this is what Ralph wants more than us believing in his existence. Whether Ralph is the inspiration or not - maybe we should see the light of things regardless. Make no mistake however, I do respect those who simply don't believe in god or even the possibility of him. Maybe i'm a hopeless romantic lol. The right side in conflict with the left.
Jacqueg - I respect your thought process here but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water - We don't know if Ralph doesn't care. We have much to be inspired by. Perhaps this is what he wants for us to take hold of - As long as we don't do this as individuals and as a species, this is ours to wear, not necessarily his. Lets replace intervention with inspiration. Perhaps this is what Ralph wants more than us believing in his existence. Whether Ralph is the inspiration or not - maybe we should see the light of things regardless. Make no mistake however, I do respect those who simply don't believe in god or even the possibility of him. Maybe i'm a hopeless romantic lol. The right side in conflict with the left.
If ralph does care, we go back to the first observation - ralph is literally inhuman, therefore does not have human emotions, and does not care in a way that we can recognize. For instance, I can visualize that ralph does care about the ongoing success of the universe, but just not us temporary manifestations as individuals. If ralph is some kind of 'they', ralph might not see individual lives as all that interesting or significant.
I am actually open to the idea that something like ralph does exist in some fashion. But the closest I can come to visualizing ralph is something like the vedanta notion of brahma's nature.
Most of the time, I find it easier to just skip the whole idea, however. Too much speculating with too little useful result. I only think about ralph/hepzibah in idle moments.
BTW, a degree in biology would quickly disabuse you of your romanticism! There's no question but that we perceive beauty in the world but that makes sense because we evolved here. It's pretty easy to mentally invent a world that we would find distinctly distasteful, and then mentally evolve some beings that would find it beautiful.
If ralph does care, we go back to the first observation - ralph is literally inhuman, therefore does not have human emotions, and does not care in a way that we can recognize. For instance, I can visualize that ralph does care about the ongoing success of the universe, but just not us temporary manifestations as individuals. If ralph is some kind of 'they', ralph might not see individual lives as all that interesting or significant.
I am actually open to the idea that something like ralph does exist in some fashion. But the closest I can come to visualizing ralph is something like the vedanta notion of brahma's nature.
Most of the time, I find it easier to just skip the whole idea, however. Too much speculating with too little useful result. I only think about ralph/hepzibah in idle moments.
BTW, a degree in biology would quickly disabuse you of your romanticism! There's no question but that we perceive beauty in the world but that makes sense because we evolved here. It's pretty easy to mentally invent a world that we would find distinctly distasteful, and then mentally evolve some beings that would find it beautiful.
Supposedly, ralph is of superior intelligence since he was able to set up evolution. But in my book he takes the prize for being the stupidest entity in the universe. This guy has got no common sense. He allowed us to develop nuclear bombs which will likely be the thing that ends the human race. So he creates the human race and then puts the gun into our hand and says 'Blow out your brains. See if I care." What was it all for? Why go through all the effort to create us only to let us destroy ourselves? makes absolutely no sense, just like god.
OK, let's posit that there is something like a personality at the heart of the universe. Now I don't like calling it god, because that is such a weighted word, and everyone assumes they know what you mean when you say it. Therefore, today I'm going to call it ralph. I've also been known to call it hepzibah, because why not? (I'm pretty sure ralph doesn't care what we call it.)
So what can we say about ralph, judging from the universe?
First of all, ralph is literally inhuman, so attributing human(ish) emotions to it is a very far stretch indeed. Best to assume it doesn't - occam's razor.
What does ralph value? Change and recycling. ralph really will let you turn lead into gold. All you need is energy.
Also, ralph values biodiversity. But ralph does not value individual life, at either the cellular or the organism level. We know this because ralph has made a world where every cell/organism, sooner or later, is eaten by some other cell/organism, and ralph cares not about the emotions of the soon-to-be-eaten. Or at least, ralph doesn't care enough to do anything about it.
What else can be said about ralph?
Ralph got the great idea of having the animals and organisms eat each other after we ate that fruit in the garden. And then after he flooded the earth and killed everything but eight people and two of each kind of animal...Ralph decided we could eat animals too. And that's why there are no more dinosaurs. Noah and the bunch ate the two dinosaurs right after they got off the ark.
If ralph does care, we go back to the first observation - ralph is literally inhuman, therefore does not have human emotions, and does not care in a way that we can recognize. For instance, I can visualize that ralph does care about the ongoing success of the universe, but just not us temporary manifestations as individuals. If ralph is some kind of 'they', ralph might not see individual lives as all that interesting or significant.
We may not be so different than Ralph. Not to say that he is human but lets posit that he really exists, we could be just one manifestation of Ralph - of Billions or Trillions or more. Yes we are humans but we have the powers innate in us that other highly intelligent beings in the universe would potentially share. Intelligence, emotions, desires etc. If Ralph cares about the universe, i'm not sure why he wouldn't care about us or why we would conclude he does not. Again i highlight expectation here. We exist, we are here we have the opportunity to shape the world in ways no other species has on this planet. What more would we need from Ralph, Intervention to prevent global warming. Well do we not have the capacity to do that ourselves. Perhaps Ralph has intervened in other ways we don't know about and why would we expect that he would need to reveal that. If he did than where would the challenge of building things be, where would the wonder of discovery and exploration be - we'd be with god furnished with all that by default with no effort and no spiritual evolution.
So now, we don't have a god as a mother figure always answering the call telling us how much she loves us, but what we do have is the capacity to be inspired, to love and to appreciate. All things that could have developed independently of course but maybe, just maybe these are connected to something bigger than our world linked to something that may be more than just a natural process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
I am actually open to the idea that something like ralph does exist in some fashion. But the closest I can come to visualizing ralph is something like the vedanta notion of brahma's nature.
Interesting - ya got me here. I'd i'l read up on the bolded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
Most of the time, I find it easier to just skip the whole idea, however. Too much speculating with too little useful result. I only think about ralph/hepzibah in idle moments.
Most of the time I don't think about it either and I'm sure he'd be alright about it lol. It is a lot of speculation and this isn't something that logic is going to play into strongly. Anything I have in terms of a belief in a god is something very personal to me. Actually, why i'm engaging with Atheists in here is a way of stress testing this for me. I'm not threatened at all by Atheistic notions and I am reading this all eyes wide open - and i've accepted the possibility that the reality we live in, has no god in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
BTW, a degree in biology would quickly disabuse you of your romanticism! There's no question but that we perceive beauty in the world but that makes sense because we evolved here. It's pretty easy to mentally invent a world that we would find distinctly distasteful, and then mentally evolve some beings that would find it beautiful.
Oh yes absolutely the concept of beauty makes sense to me as it relates to the Earth and our evolution here. There's no place like home as they say. That said, we haven't really evolved long enough I think to appreciate the beauty of the cosmos - and yet it is breathtakingly beautiful. Until 1876, we had no idea of the stunning beauty of the barred spiral galaxy NGC 2336. It wasn't until the Hubble telescope came around just a few decades ago, that we could really get an appreciation for the beauty that is a galaxy. I find as much beauty in the cosmos however, as I do on earth. I'm talking purely visually of course. I wouldn't want to be dropped off in that galaxy without the protection of the earth. So I think beauty transcends just the evolutionary element of our connection with the earth over the eons.
Thanks for the engage on this. If you get bored of all this speculation with no useful result - I won't take it personally
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I'm always ready to acknowledge a possibility. I give it about 10% for to 90% against. On that slim possibility give me a holler.
We may not be so different than Ralph. Not to say that he is human but lets posit that he really exists, we could be just one manifestation of Ralph - of Billions or Trillions or more. Yes we are humans but we have the powers innate in us that other highly intelligent beings in the universe would potentially share. Intelligence, emotions, desires etc. If Ralph cares about the universe, i'm not sure why he wouldn't care about us or why we would conclude he does not. Again i highlight expectations here. We exist, we are here we have the opportunity to shape the world in ways no other species has on this planet. What more would we need from Ralph, Intervention to prevent global warming.Well do we not have the capacity to do that ourselves. Perhaps Ralph has intervened in other ways we don't know about and why would we expect that he would need to reveal that. If he did than where would the challenge of building things be, where would the wonder of discovery and exploration be - we'd be with god furnished with all that by default with no effort and no spiritual evolution.
So now, we don't have a god as a mother figure always answering the call telling us how much she loves us, but what we do have is the capacity to be inspired, to love and to appreciate. All things that could have developed independently of course but maybe, just maybe these are connected to something bigger than our world linked to something that may be more than just a natural process.
In the abstract, WE are all collectively part of "Ralph." What I find mystifying is why we ignore the intelligence we possess as part of what Einstein called the inexplicable "intelligibility" of our reality. Atheists seem to require the "emergence" of intelligence through some evolutionary process involving the equally inexplicable "emergence" of life from otherwise "dead" and unintelligent elements through physical and chemical "laws" without a legislator.
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