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Old 01-25-2023, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno View Post
So I ask, how much of what you earn, do you owe me? How much of what I earn do I owe you?
Society, as a collective, decides whether, and to what degree, it will care for its most vulnerable through the mechanisms of the commons, what it will leave to families or individuals, etc.

The best predictor of how that would go is how it works in other societies. In Norway for example you might pay 60% of your income in taxes but most Norse consider it a fair trade because no one worries about higher education, health care, or retirement. Those things are just a given. Wealthy societies can afford to make it so, if they choose. And I don't see the Norse sitting around eating bon-bons. Also they treat prisoners humanely, and I don't see anarchy and chaos and terrible crime as a result.

There's an old proverb that a society becomes great when old men plant trees under whose shade they will never sit. [shrug]
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Old 01-25-2023, 10:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Society, as a collective, decides whether, and to what degree, it will care for its most vulnerable through the mechanisms of the commons, what it will leave to families or individuals, etc.

The best predictor of how that would go is how it works in other societies. In Norway for example you might pay 60% of your income in taxes but most Norse consider it a fair trade because no one worries about higher education, health care, or retirement. Those things are just a given. Wealthy societies can afford to make it so, if they choose. And I don't see the Norse sitting around eating bon-bons. Also they treat prisoners humanely, and I don't see anarchy and chaos and terrible crime as a result.

There's an old proverb that a society becomes great when old men plant trees under whose shade they will never sit. [shrug]
If people of like mind (or at least mostly) can come to agreement that most are happy with and it works, I think that's great, none of my business. But if everyone contributes and everyone benefits, it's not so bad. What we have in America is not that. Hard to say if Norway is a great example for the rest of the world as each region has it's own unique attributes. Norway has been a country since 872 A.D. and only has a population of 5.5M, so they are different for assorted reasons (not really worth listing nor debating in this thread on Hope). But at least they can be cited as a pilot perhaps.

America has been a mixture of individualism, collectivism, corporativism, and governmentism, under a loosely described capitalism. But it's rise and success has been the most explosive in world history. People see what they want to see. Some see more of the bad elements of that rise and call the nation evil, some the opposite. But calling it a failure because it's not a particular person's brand preference is hardly constructive.(not saying you are doing that). America has wonder/horror, fantastic/abhorrent, peasant/distasteful elements of it's construction. But more than anything it offers opportunity for those that will see it, the rest just whine about everyone except themselves; the evil wealthy, the overreacting government, greedy corporations, racists, inequality, inequity, etc., habitually. I'm not saying those things don't exist, and should not be addressed, but my own experience suggests the problems within are far more often a challenge, than those of the nation. Naturally there are those like slaves before 1863, that faced the hard wall of no opportunity, I'm not discounting that.
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Old 02-12-2023, 08:40 AM
 
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I frankly think hope is just for the young. Young people are the only ones who are really going to benefit from hope. I think the aging process involves the destruction of hope and other emotional factors as well as the physical aspects of our body's gradual decaying process.



As a 72 YO my body is undergoing the destruction process like everyone else's in their 70's and 80's. Bette Davis was right: "Getting old ain't for sissies". Along with this physical destruction of my body is the destruction of any hope for this planet, not necessarily the destruction brought about by natural causes like global climate change but of values like appreciation of the sacredness of life. People kill hundreds of other people without remorse these days. Governments are corrupt to the core. Life is so expensive to live. I sometimes find myself slipping and attributing all this to an uncaring Higher Power. I think that from the moment life started operating hundreds of millions of years ago it was a system of species feeding on other species; carnivores inflicting the most ungodly pain and suffering on herbivores; deadly disgusting varieties of insects inflicting pain and misery on humans. I mean any Higher Intelligence with half a brain could have devised a better system. I could have devised a more practical and humane system and I'm not the brightest bulb in the room.



So the only way to dismiss all this chaos in this world is to come to grips with the hypothesis that a Higher Power had nothing to do with setting this broken system up; it had to just naturally evolve and bad stuff came along with the good stuff. But part of my reason for having no hope for our civilization is because I have learned from observation that evil will always triumph over good in the end. The notion that good is more powerful than evil is an illusion. It isn't.



Age has withered my hope for anything good happening from here on out--for me AND for the world. In ten years if I'm lucky enough to last that long (in pretty good comfort with the assets I have) I'll die and enter the great void of nothingness like all of us will eventually. There's no pie in the sky to hope for; no Jesus; no Buddha; no nothing. In a few thousand trillion years the universe will go dark and then maybe it'll all start again. My philosophy which I learned all too late: work hard when you're young to accumulate assets for your old age. Have NO hope in a Higher Being to help you. In old age grab all the small comforts and happiness you can because they will be in extremely short supply in old age.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 02-12-2023 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 02-12-2023, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Thoughts?
Hope is good.

The reason many suffer from Major Depressive Disorder is because they see no hope. That's also why many commit suicide, the lack of hope.

For many, there's no point in getting out of bed because nothing will change. That's a very subjective view and the solution is to give them hope, plus a lot of other things. For a lot of them you have to convince them to stop trying to control those things over which they have no control and to start taking control of the things they can control, like their attitude. Often, you have to teach them to think differently which can be done using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
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Old 02-12-2023, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Hope is good.

The reason many suffer from Major Depressive Disorder is because they see no hope. That's also why many commit suicide, the lack of hope.

For many, there's no point in getting out of bed because nothing will change. That's a very subjective view and the solution is to give them hope, plus a lot of other things. For a lot of them you have to convince them to stop trying to control those things over which they have no control and to start taking control of the things they can control, like their attitude. Often, you have to teach them to think differently which can be done using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
I think it comes down to what one's hopes are based upon.

If, for example, your hope is based on a sky wizard having your back then apart from enough dumb luck to misattribute desired outcomes to said aid, that hope is doomed to be dashed.

If you have reasonable expectations of what your efforts will produce based on actual reality, then that might be termed "hope", and a good thing on balance. However it is even then unreasonable to assume you're somehow immune to disappointment, betrayal, etc., or just bad luck.

I suppose the old philosophical chestnut, "you win some, you lose some" applies. The problem is that a lot of people feel entitled to win close to 100% of all substantive bets, and religion is a major source of that sense of entitlement in my experience and observation. One has to examine their beliefs about what is supposedly "fair", "just", or "right" or what "ought" to be and view life more in terms of general tendencies than of immutable laws or anything involving the turning of some behind-the-scenes wheels of justice.
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Old 02-12-2023, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I think it comes down to what one's hopes are based upon.

If, for example, your hope is based on a sky wizard having your back then apart from enough dumb luck to misattribute desired outcomes to said aid, that hope is doomed to be dashed.
Of that I have no doubt.

Hope is not exactly the same as goals, but they are similar and like goals, hope has to be realistic.

Unrealistic hopes are detrimental. It's one thing to hope to win the PowerBall and buy a ticket when it reaches a jack-pot of $750 Million but it's another thing entirely to devote 10% (or more) of one's paycheck every pay day on lotto and scratch off ticket in the hope of winning it big.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
If you have reasonable expectations of what your efforts will produce based on actual reality, then that might be termed "hope", and a good thing on balance. However it is even then unreasonable to assume you're somehow immune to disappointment, betrayal, etc., or just bad luck.
Yes, hopes are also akin to dreams and like dreams and goals, hope has to be acted upon. We don't always succeed on the first attempt and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with failure provided people learn from the experience and make the necessary adjustments.

That's where religion is harmful because it misleads people into believing they need only pray. It takes a lot more than that.

Even worse is when the prayer's aren't answered and people go to the "that isn't what god had planned for me." You know what? I don't really care what god-things have planned. Damn their plans. I'm going to do all I can to realize my hopes, dreams, and goals just to make 'em madder.
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Old 02-13-2023, 02:19 AM
 
Location: Gettysburg, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
[...] Christianity contributes to this problem by making hope a central feature of thinking. Just believe -- don't base it on anything but what you want / need to be true. You don't need to act; you can send thoughts and prayers. Prefer passive hope over decisive action, politeness over confrontation, acceptance over questioning, and perhaps above all, conformity over needed disruption or change. After all, god is in control and knows what's best and has your back -- if you're sufficiently "good" -- this absolves you of directly confronting or wrestling with issues.

[...]
Maybe I am misunderstanding religious thinking on this score, but I don't think I'm misunderstanding it in terms of the fundamentalism I was raised within at least. I confess that I have had to work against a strong bias toward being conflict averse as a result.

Thoughts?
I appreciate your honesty and directness in your posts, mordant. Yes, that view of the appropriate actions for a Christian is not based on the Biblical view (or it is a misguided Biblical view). You do need to act (and that may involve disruption and/or change). God tells us through His servant John that if you see a brother in need and merely pray for him but do nothing (should it be in your power) to help him, then that is wrong and one is not acting in accordance with what one should do as a Christian. God is indeed in control (no one is sufficiently good) but this does not absolve us of our responsibility to act in accordance with the moral laws which our Lord provides to us.

Hope, or trust, in God is resting in Him--unburdening from ourselves the things which we indeed cannot control.

Well, those are my thoughts. I just saw this thread without going into the forum as I generally do not visit it since I'm no longer an atheist. For me, my hope in Jesus is vital to my life. I mentioned before how my husband passed away suddenly and unexpectedly a few years back, and this has been an insurmountable burden to me which without my faith in Jesus would have caused me to take my own life.

So, if some life which would not be taken by one's own hand is a good thing, then I feel that my example shows that hope is a good thing at least for some people (and I don't sit back and eschew my responsibility of being a contributing member of society, thinking whatever, God's in control so what I do doesn't matter; since my husband was called to be with our Lord in glory I strive that my entire purpose in life should be to serve my God by honoring Him in my life and showing the love and compassion of Jesus to my neighbors).
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Old 02-13-2023, 08:25 AM
 
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There's no good reason to believe in God. God if he exists gives us every reason NOT to believe in him. So how can anyone have hope for something beyond this earthly life? God if he exists has given us every reason to conclude that once we die that's the end of us consciousness and all. Hope you'll live to 100 in good health without any pain and suffering and that when you die it'll be quick and painless. There's not much to hope for beyond that. But God, if I know how he operates, will see to it that you die slowly and in misery and excruciating pain and terror.
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Old 02-17-2023, 12:53 PM
 
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So I see that the atheists, non-believers, and agnostics have, for the most part, been driven onto this board. Yeah, I figured it would come to this sooner or later given the way people are acting on the main board.

I've asked Mightyqueen to delete my account - or to find someone who can since I don't like having unused accounts hanging around that someone can hack into and cause me issues. No thanks. Don't need it.

Whatever the case, I think the 8 or so years I've been here has been a good run. Nothing lasts forever, I guess. But this place isn't the same place it was when I joined. In fact, if it had been like this back in 2013 I never would have stuck around in the first place.

The main forum has gotten far too elitist and uppity for my tastes and the membership is too small. Now it's more like a clique than a forum - and if you don't agree with them, well, you get the idea.

As for hope, well ... the problem with hope is that everyone feels it even when they don't want to - or wish they didn't. I know in my own life, there were plenty of times when I knew the hope was false - that it would not lead to good results. And yet I felt it anyway, completely unbidden.

The thing about hope is that - whatever is about to happen will happen. And it will happen in whatever way it was destined to happen, and humanity's hope means absolutely diddly squat.

Your hope for something will not change anything at all. There are no quantum mechanics at work with hope. It is merely an emotion- either anticipation or dread for an upcoming event. Feeling unhopeful will not change the odds of an unwanted event - any more than feeling hopeful will increase the odds of a wanted event.

I have to admit that, given my own life and how miserable it has turned out, hope has always been a dangerous game for me - and it has done more harm than good. I have hoped for far too many things which never materialized. The younger I was, the higher my hopes. But as each thing came and went with no opportunities and no possibility for second chances, my hopes became less and less grandiose until I would've been satisfied working data entry for $25k per year. I would've been happy to get through two consecutive days without pain. Yada yada. Blah blah. Until I just gave up entirely. Eventually there's just nothing left to do except go down with the ship.

All it does is allow you to visualize how things could've been - but rarely do they ever get there. Hope and expectations are the two biggest killers I know.

I remember when I was actually happy - as a teen in high school - my group of friends, we never planned anything. Never. The reason is that not having a plan means nothing can go wrong and there are no expectations that aren't met. Everything will be a surprise no matter what it is, and virtually nothing will be a disappointment because we weren't expecting anything to begin with. And by god it worked! I credit how happy I was back then, at least in part, due to the fact that we never planned or hoped or had big expectations.
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Old 02-20-2023, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I remember when I was actually happy - as a teen in high school - my group of friends, we never planned anything. Never. The reason is that not having a plan means nothing can go wrong and there are no expectations that aren't met. Everything will be a surprise no matter what it is, and virtually nothing will be a disappointment because we weren't expecting anything to begin with. And by god it worked! I credit how happy I was back then, at least in part, due to the fact that we never planned or hoped or had big expectations.
I think at that point in my life, my mortality had no sense of reality to it. Life seemed like a bountiful resource, it could be squandered with abandon.

But I felt, if not hope exactly, lots of entitlement in those days, because I imagined that the creator and sustainer of the universe had me in his back pocket, had great plans for me, etc. Because of the knock-on effects of those beliefs, I don't really have that period to look back on with fondness for its carefree qualities. I was too busy caring too much and trying too hard. Also there was a stick up my patootie.

Now for my wife and I in our 60s it is all about letting go of expectations and letting things be as they are. My wife's knees need to be chopped out and replaced. I have back problems, and miss the energy I used to bring to the plate. Life gets smaller and smaller; the damned pandemic has NOT helped. Yet in a weird way it's sufficient because our ambition has had time to shrink along with our abilities.

Shirina, I have missed that you haven't been here more. You're a remarkable light in the world, in my view. I am sorry you have not found the enjoyment and camaraderie you hoped to here. I, for one, wish you wouldn't go, especially if it means taking your writing history with you. That's a treasure. But you have to do what is best for you. I hope that life surprises you with more friendships and enjoyment than you expected. In the just world I once believed in, it definitely would.
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