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Personally I have never understood the deep level of terror some have over the prospect of non-existence, especially given how un-horrifying their pre-birth non-existence was, combined with Christianity's theological aversion to concepts like reincarnation and rebirth. Even the name often given to the concept -- "annihilation" -- assumes it's a horrible thing.
Psychologists call this "annihilation anxiety" and it is supposed to come from one's survival instinct being threatened. And I get that. But apart from the experience or process of dying, I don't see it as a practical problem and believe that survival fears are just camouflage for ego-attachment to the concept of immortality and the bragging rights one has about having obtained grace from god almighty himself.
Here's what gets me.
I do understand "annihilation anxiety." When we sat through our pre-birth nonexistence, we didn't know beforehand that we were about to become --- nonexistent. Instead, we were simply nonexistent.
However, now that we're alive, now that we exist, we want to continue existing. We don't want to go back to that pre-birth nonexistence. Think of it like Newton's First Law of Motion - only it's Shirina's First Law of Existence: A body that exists wants to stay in existence and will continue to exist unless an outside force acts upon it - like, say ... death. But yeah, one you exist, most people want to stay in existence. Even if they're not necessarily happy with their existence. Of course, that's not true for every single person or we wouldn't have suicides. But it's constant enough to be generally true.
I think Christopher Hitchens said it best -- and I'm paraphrasing here: "It's one thing when the party is over, the booze is gone, the food is eaten, and everyone says goodbye as we all file out to our cars. But it's something else entirely when someone says to me, "the party is over" -- and it's only over for me. Everyone else is still laughing, socializing, and having a good time. But I, alone, have to leave."
I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, personally, what makes dying for me rather onerous is knowing all of the things I'll miss. As someone who has been passionate about history since I was 5 years old, there's just something about the world moving on without me so that I will never know how the whole story ends. It's like someone handing you a thick book with the last page dog-eared - because that's where history ends but your life begins.
You're free to go back to Page 1 and learn how the story progressed up until the current day. But when you die, it's like someone taking the book from you -- and you aren't free to see what happens next. It just ends. Like watching an engrossing show on television and, whammo, a power failure.
To know there will be teens falling in love, people going on exotic vacations, still others getting on a roller coaster or having a picnic or stargazing or hugging their children -- and I will never again experience those things. It's not an ego thing - like, "How dare this world continue when I'm not here!!" It's more of a melancholy numbness when you realize the things you once cherished so much are now forever beyond you. It's a very difficult feeling to adequately express in words so forgive me if I'm not making much sense.
However, what I fail to understand about religion is that it does not present a good picture of what the afterlife would be. Again, to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: "Why would I want to live in a cosmic North Korea for all eternity?"
And he's right. To use Christianity as an example: Why would I want to live in a Heaven ruled over by Yahweh/Jehovah who treats humanity as though he hates us. From the very beginning, Yahweh has treated humans like insects -- as if we have no feelings, no sentience at all. He just murders us by the billions throughout the Old Testament -- and Jesus continues the slaughter by bringing Hell into the equation so that now only the most pious of Christians will ever set food in Heavens while trillions burn.
WHY would anyone want that? One of the many reasons why Christianity never "took" with me is that Yahweh acted like every other god in human history - the usual narcissistic, ego-centric, perpetually angry deity that demanded worship and kowtowing and faceplanting. A deity that acted as though it occasionally forgot who and what it was and therefore needed humans to remind it. Thus -- you get all of the praising and hymn-singing and ridiculous thanking.
When I read the Bible, all I saw was violence, murder, and a complete disregard for the sanctity of life - god or no god. And the entire "he's god, he can do what he wants" excuse was so pathetic I'm surprised anyone even used it. But there it was -- all over the forums.
The only conclusion I've been able to draw from this is that the cognitive dissonance of religious belief is so huge that it's nigh on impossible to get "unstuck" from it -- like a fly in a spider's web.
Given the context of what I've said, I can also easily understand a certain desire to live forever. Though I would not want to live forever in this form and on this planet. Things change too fast -- and just about everything is geared toward the young. Once you hit middle age, it's expected that you're married, raising kids, and climbing the corporate ladder. You're not having fun anymore -- you're not going to movies or playing computer games or taking trips or doing anything like that. You're just slogging through your workday, making dinner, doing chores -- everything for your children -- then going to bed. Rinse and repeat.
As such, the world just ... flies past while the young have fun and you do all the work. Eventually, the world you knew no longer exists. You have no idea who the hot new musical groups are. The celebrities in the few movies you do see, you don't recognize. You stumble and trip over the latest technology. Many of the things you once treasured are simply gone. My father said to me when he was in his 60s how he was beginning to understand why so many older people are ready to die.
I just don't understand why anyone would buy into a religion that was so exclusive as to ensure the vast majority of their friends and family will not make the cut to get into Heaven -- with a so-called paradise ruled over by a gruesome megalomaniac who cares nothing for human life -- in a place with no apparent purpose other than the vague and tropish "to serve god" nonsense.
If they really wanted to invent a truly good god - something humanity was apparently incapable of doing back in those days - why not really have a good god? Why must one rely on cognitive dissonance to see it? Thus, it's no wonder why the young choose to disregard religion - which is always authoritarian and filled with hundreds of rules.
I made a challenge to all the Christians on this forum some six or seven years ago. I told them to find me just one verse in the Bible. Just ONE verse that was designed to make the reader laugh. Something said that was SUPPOSED to be funny. I don't mean the many, many, many things that are accidentally funny, but an actual joke in the Bible.
Guess what. Yeah. No one has yet been able to meet that challenge. Because I think we all know there isn't one. This is another BIG turn-off for young people. Because religion comes across as boring and stuffy, something that not only sucks the fun right out of the room - but is literally ANTI-fun.
I remember getting invited to a big roller skating party when I was a senior in high school. I went, not knowing the whole thing was being put on by a church group. SIGH. I was having fun socializing and mingling - when all the sudden we were told to clear the rink. Because we had to sit through a friggin sermon. A SERMON! These religious people -- they can't simply get kids together and let them have their fun. Oh no. They ALWAYS have to ruin it with their buzzkill preaching -- just another reason why young people become atheists.
By the way, there were far more kids than there was space, so I had to sit on a pinball machine while this annoying sermon took place. I discovered that if I wiggled in just the right way, I could cause it to make a series of beeps, clicks, and sad horn noises. Needless to say, I wiggled a lot during the sermon, and it got everyone around me to laugh -- which got the preachers angry because we weren't paying attention to the oh so important Bible verses. Because of my not-so-innocent disruptions, I ended up meeting my next boyfriend haha ... so some good came of it. But like I said -- religion cannot tolerate fun and laughter except for those mind-numbing fake church smiles. I think we all know what I mean.
And most churches have this weird and unpleasant smell. Like ... a combination of "old lady" perfume, cleaning fluids, and the fumes from the wood stain on the pews. YUCK, man. Talk about ... pew! (picture me waving my hand in front of my nose). Even blindfolded, I could tell when I walked into a church. Oh, and speaking of pews, every church I have ever been in, including those huge, over-sized Catholic churches, had pews that were deliberately designed to be uncomfortable. Even those green fold-out metal chairs were more comfortable than any church pew I've ever sat in. They had no padding, no lumbar support, and if you tried stretching out your legs, you'd crack your shins on the back corner of the pew in front of you. Economy flights sitting in coach had more leg room. I mean, what gives here? Is this to make it so people won't fall asleep? Well here's an idea - why not make church more f-ing fun? Instead, they have to come up with cheap-ass tricks. Might as well put tacks on everyone's pew.
As someone as close to young as you're likely to find on this forum, I can vouch for all of this - especially the authoritarian part of religion. The very LAST thing teens want are more rules -- especially rules that intrude into their personal lives like what they're allowed to wear. As a female, I can also vouch that 99% of the rules in religion are aimed at women -- which stands to reason given that religion was invented by men. There are still idiot preachers out there ranting about women wearing pants. Seriously. Any preacher who thinks I'm going to wear a dress every day regardless of what I'm doing can shove it. But there you go - this is why young people do not like religion and often end up finding all the reasons we're familiar with as to why god almost certainly does not exist.
Okay -- I'm just having a little bit of fun now, so I'll stop yammering.
I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, personally, what makes dying for me rather onerous is knowing all of the things I'll miss.
Well then again, it cuts both ways. There are a lot of things I'd like to miss out on. The climate crisis, war, the increasing crescendo of aches and pains as I age, spam ... I am not here for any of that stuff, lol.
But I hear you. And I hear the late great Mr. Hitchens. I have just never seen life as a jolly party. I envy your youthful friendships. I do not even know what that is like, TBH. If I did, I might be more wistful about letting go of it.
I was never raised in a religious house. My parents worshiped a beer can over everything else. That toxic, loveless, vapid childhood made me ripe for religious cult offering something I never had growing up. I was attracted to the kindness I saw there. I became very religious as a teenager, I guess church was my salvation and a coping mechanism. Ditto for school. At least it took me away from the fear and that toxic abusive environment for a little while. I chose to be baptized at 19.
You know how it is when you're a kid and find out there is no Santa Klaus or Easter Bunny. It's part of growing and gaining knowledge.
I became disillusioned with religion and the control factor of it. I also had so many questions dismissed as you have to just have faith. Well no, that's not the answer I seek. It began to feel more like a cult to me.
You can't talk to someone so deep into an emotional belief system. There is no logic there. It's as if they have to believe because that's the way they've always been trained to think. My questions leave them with a deer in the headlight stare and the same old answer. Have faith. Nope. I'm from Missouri. I'm also a truth seeker vs rhetoric and fairy tale magical thinking.
Well then again, it cuts both ways. There are a lot of things I'd like to miss out on. The climate crisis, war, the increasing crescendo of aches and pains as I age, spam ... I am not here for any of that stuff, lol.
But I hear you. And I hear the late great Mr. Hitchens. I have just never seen life as a jolly party. I envy your youthful friendships. I do not even know what that is like, TBH. If I did, I might be more wistful about letting go of it.
You're right in that it cuts both ways. I've said many times to people that I hope I'm just old enough to miss the inevitable "point of no return" when it comes to climate change -- since it would seem that we are living in the most selfish era of human history. Yeah, who cares if we destroy the planet. At least we will get rich and powerful. We'll let our grandkids suffer through the consequences!
Also, I guess when I talked about missing things, I was more talking on the line of wordly or global things, not the personal things. You know - new movies, new books, increasingly more powerful computers and new technology ... that sort of thing.
The thing about having the friends that I had during my childhood and adolescence is that -- you're not supposed to have the kind of perfect bliss that we had then. I didn't have a problem with graduating and life changing -- but why would I want to give up where I was in favor of a life I new I was going to hate? It was a terrible problem of the grass being greenest precisely where I was standing - I had no desire to move to a different patch of grass because nowhere was it greener than where I already was. But the universe has never been concerned with what I want and thus it evicted me from my patch of green grass and made me move into a circle of yellow grass that looked as if it had been peed on too many times by a dog suffering from gout.
When it all came to an end, I fell into a horrible depression that lasted years. In truth, I'm not sure if it has ever ended -- knowing I've already lived through the best years life had to offer. Everything from here on out is simply going to be -- struggle. And I'm not even sure for what.
Life stopped being a jolly party for me some time ago. I know that it's kind of the famous, "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" statement. But I don't know. Was it better? Perhaps things would have been different if I hadn't had to lose such profound happiness and contentment at such a vulnerable time in a person's life. But I guess we'll never know.
I don't think I'm all too wistful of letting go of life -- because, to be honest, there's nothing really left to let go of. Just a lot of memories.
How any of this relates to the relative age of atheists -- I don't know that, either. (*big shrug*)
I was never raised in a religious house. My parents worshiped a beer can over everything else. That toxic, loveless, vapid childhood made me ripe for religious cult offering something I never had growing up. I was attracted to the kindness I saw there. I became very religious as a teenager, I guess church was my salvation and a coping mechanism. Ditto for school. At least it took me away from the fear and that toxic abusive environment for a little while. I chose to be baptized at 19.
You know how it is when you're a kid and find out there is no Santa Klaus or Easter Bunny. It's part of growing and gaining knowledge.
I became disillusioned with religion and the control factor of it. I also had so many questions dismissed as you have to just have faith. Well no, that's not the answer I seek. It began to feel more like a cult to me.
You can't talk to someone so deep into an emotional belief system. There is no logic there. It's as if they have to believe because that's the way they've always been trained to think. My questions leave them with a deer in the headlight stare and the same old answer. Have faith. Nope. I'm from Missouri. I'm also a truth seeker vs rhetoric and fairy tale magical thinking.
I lived with my maternal grandparents on and off as I was growing up. They were very religious. I remember how, during the last year of his life, my grandfather would sit alone in a dark room worried sick about going to Hell. It's one of those things that really ticks me off about religion considering my grandfather was one of the kindest and most loving men anyone could ask for -- even if he adopted that cliche gruff exterior.
Considering the only reason why anyone goes to hell is a lack of belief, I knew there was no way my grandfather was going there (not that I thought this anyway considering I don't believe in Hell). Once in awhile someone would bring up religion within a context that irritated me and I spoke out about it -- but like you said, there's no way I was going to change the minds of people who were so emotionally invested in their religion. I was just fortunate that I didn't have any of it pushed onto me. I was never made to attend church or any church functions.
However, being shoved kicking and screaming into the adult world made me susceptible to religion, as well -- and that's when I ended up grabbing hold of Christianity. But that only lasted a few years before a thorough read of the Bible made me think, "What the hell am I believing in, here?"
Even now I can't understand how anyone could read the Bible and still talk of either God or Jesus (same thing anyway) with any kind of love or reverence. Yahweh was a terroristic monster. Considering Jesus brought with him the idea of hell and eteral punishment, he was no sweetie either.
Just once I wish someone could invent a God who was truly good. Why do humans have this bizarre predilection for worshiping mean, vindictive, and genocidal gods that would rather snuff you out than to help you with even the simplest thing?
I was never raised in a religious house. My parents worshiped a beer can over everything else. That toxic, loveless, vapid childhood made me ripe for religious cult offering something I never had growing up. I was attracted to the kindness I saw there. I became very religious as a teenager, I guess church was my salvation and a coping mechanism. Ditto for school. At least it took me away from the fear and that toxic abusive environment for a little while. I chose to be baptized at 19.
You know how it is when you're a kid and find out there is no Santa Klaus or Easter Bunny. It's part of growing and gaining knowledge.
I became disillusioned with religion and the control factor of it. I also had so many questions dismissed as you have to just have faith. Well no, that's not the answer I seek. It began to feel more like a cult to me.
You can't talk to someone so deep into an emotional belief system. There is no logic there. It's as if they have to believe because that's the way they've always been trained to think. My questions leave them with a deer in the headlight stare and the same old answer. Have faith. Nope. I'm from Missouri. I'm also a truth seeker vs rhetoric and fairy tale magical thinking.
Life stopped being a jolly party for me some time ago. I know that it's kind of the famous, "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" statement. But I don't know. Was it better? Perhaps things would have been different if I hadn't had to lose such profound happiness and contentment at such a vulnerable time in a person's life. But I guess we'll never know.
I understand life has more recently been a slog for you ... I was speaking more to the question you touch on here, which is, I don't even have the memory of a party. Would such a memory be a boon to me at this point? I have tended to think so. As one ages, one tends to want to savor good memories as the scope of your life shrinks. I feel sometimes like I've been left holding the bag there, at least outside of my professional life -- and my memories are littered with way too many deaths and such
But you are describing the flip side ... if I had such good memories that nothing that came after can possibly measure up to that ... maybe I would feel badly. Maybe those two responses could, to an extent, be a choice as to how you process or frame this knowledge. IDK. Interesting question. In any case I have come to terms with the fact that (and pardon the cliche) "it is what is is". The cold consolation is that I doubt anyone's life turns out just as planned or desired. Life is way too chaotic and lacking in safety guardrails for that to happen.
FWIW what helps me is to keep my ambitions and goals as small-scale as possible. I used to need to blow the barn doors off of everything 100% of the time. These days, a nice walk in the sunshine suffices to make my day. I have, in short, learned not to care so much or always try so hard. This is hard for an idealist -- but it is possible.
I understand life has more recently been a slog for you ... I was speaking more to the question you touch on here, which is, I don't even have the memory of a party. Would such a memory be a boon to me at this point? I have tended to think so. As one ages, one tends to want to savor good memories as the scope of your life shrinks. I feel sometimes like I've been left holding the bag there, at least outside of my professional life -- and my memories are littered with way too many deaths and such
But you are describing the flip side ... if I had such good memories that nothing that came after can possibly measure up to that ... maybe I would feel badly. Maybe those two responses could, to an extent, be a choice as to how you process or frame this knowledge. IDK. Interesting question. In any case I have come to terms with the fact that (and pardon the cliche) "it is what is is". The cold consolation is that I doubt anyone's life turns out just as planned or desired. Life is way too chaotic and lacking in safety guardrails for that to happen.
FWIW what helps me is to keep my ambitions and goals as small-scale as possible. I used to need to blow the barn doors off of everything 100% of the time. These days, a nice walk in the sunshine suffices to make my day. I have, in short, learned not to care so much or always try so hard. This is hard for an idealist -- but it is possible.
What's unfortunate is that we don't get the opportunity to live both branches of possibility and then decide which one best suits our psychological make-up.
What makes things a bit hard for me is that I'm still relatively young and have a long way to go. Some might argue that youth equals hope. People are wont to say that: "Oh you have most of your life still ahead of you!" But with my medical issues, it's unlikely I'm going to find a husband -- even if I could find someone compatible in the wasteland where I live. ( For instance, I'm a shameless left-wing liberal progressive atheist woke Democrat whereas 99% of the people in this entire region of the state are right-wing conservative Trump-worshiping authoritarian fascist extremely straight fundy Christian Republicans -- couldn't get more opposite if I had done it on purpose).
And I can't up and move because a) I have nowhere to go and b) I don't have the money and c) all of my medical support is here.
I do know that when my life started to crumble, the memories I had did help me get through things. I have no idea why - but somehow knowing that life wasn't always bad helped me deal with the slog. But I think it was because I believed I was simply in a short-term slump.
The problem with memories is that, at least for me, they're perishable. As the good times of my adolescence recede ever further into the mists of the past, they seem to have less and less power. Granted, every now and then I still talk to those friends and we'll do the usual reminiscing bit -- but as we all get older, our memories are failing so that even reminiscing is starting to get hard. So you end up with conversations like: "Do you remember who was with us that night at Panthers Caves when the bear showed up?" "Uh, no, wasn't it so-and-so?" "No, I thought it was blah blah" "Hmm, did we even go to Panthers Caves that year?"
Haha, and we're not even that old, relatively speaking. I will say this, though: I'm glad I had what I had when I had it. Even the most stoic of my friends have said to me later in life that there was almost something supernatural about those years. Even while they were happening, we used to joke about being in a reality show -- because it seemed almost too good, like it was all scripted. Who knows?
But I would love to take a walk in the sun as you've described. My limited mobility doesn't let me do that very often.
In terms of hanging on to good memories -- I think a lot of people tend to remember an exaggerated form of their good times while sometimes forgetting the bad altogether.
I do know that when my life started to crumble, the memories I had did help me get through things. I have no idea why - but somehow knowing that life wasn't always bad helped me deal with the slog. But I think it was because I believed I was simply in a short-term slump.
The problem with memories is that, at least for me, they're perishable. As the good times of my adolescence recede ever further into the mists of the past, they seem to have less and less power. Granted, every now and then I still talk to those friends and we'll do the usual reminiscing bit -- but as we all get older, our memories are failing so that even reminiscing is starting to get hard. So you end up with conversations like: "Do you remember who was with us that night at Panthers Caves when the bear showed up?" "Uh, no, wasn't it so-and-so?" "No, I thought it was blah blah" "Hmm, did we even go to Panthers Caves that year?"
Haha, and we're not even that old, relatively speaking. I will say this, though: I'm glad I had what I had when I had it.
I am glad it helped, at least for a time. My experience has been that anything more than about 20 years ago is getting kind of dicey in the recalling. This seemed as true when I was 40 trying to remember my teens as in my 60s trying to remember my 40s. The details get murky and you are just left with the emotional valence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
In terms of hanging on to good memories -- I think a lot of people tend to remember an exaggerated form of their good times while sometimes forgetting the bad altogether.
This is very true. And it's probably for the best.
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