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I was thinking more about this thread and this post in particular on my way home from work today, specifically the two faced nature of so many so called christians that I've met. My MIL is LDS and she treats her husband like crap. Very verbally abusive, even in public and her husband just balls up an takes it. She treats my wife in a similar manner but not as badly. How can someone call themselves mormon and treat the members of their family like that? We live in an area where there are a lot of mormons and I hear so many stories of cheating husband or wives, unscrupulous business practices and sexual abuse. How can those two faced fakers get up in church every Sunday and bear their testimony like that? Cant understand it!!
It's crazy when anyone treats family like that but it seems especially crazy to me when Mormons do so, given their beliefs about spending eternity with family. If I was going to be stuck with people for eternity I would definitely want to maintain positive vibes with them, lol. That said, I've never found believers acting contrary to their religion's mandates to be a particularly strong argument against religion. It's amazing what people can rationalize. Plus, with religions like Christianity, the whole structure is build on the idea that humans are big sinful goobers who need to be saved, so it's not really counter-Christianity for a Christian to slip up and act like a big sinful goober.
But how many atheists do you know who claim they are smarter? We do get religious people telling us what their god wants, as if they could know the mind of a god, and what this god wants is never the same as the same god followed by a different person, but how many atheists actually claim they are smarter? Some atheists may point to certain studies suggesting a correlation, but I have never seen any claim they are smarter than all religious people, which your claim infers.
I never said anything about 'all' atheists behaving this way. Go back and read.
From my experiences (at least on the internet), it's not uncommon. And the ones like this are arrogant about it.
Oh, and I have nephew like that. My father used to be like that, but the closer he gets to death, the less arrogant he's been.
Plus, with religions like Christianity, the whole structure is build on the idea that humans are big sinful goobers who need to be saved, so it's not really counter-Christianity for a Christian to slip up and act like a big sinful goober.
No. It has been perverted into you can do whatever you want and it doesn't matter so long as you believe and if you believe, then you're forgiven. That is not what the texts say, but that's how it's been perverted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit12
I don't like when those without faith think they're smarter than those who do.
Except we are smarter on a number of different levels.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the Hebrew texts and the gospel texts than any of the x-tians here.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the history than they are.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the archaeology than they are.
I'm smarter because I have studied the original source texts from which the Hebrew pre-history is derived.
I'm smarter because I have enough common sense to use the Stuttgart Bible (Codex Leningradis) instead of the King Joke Vision when studying Hebrew texts.
I'm smarter because I know the manuscripts from which the gospel texts are cobbled together.
At the most basic level, we're all smarter because we ask questions and believers refuse to ask questions, especially the hard questions for which they don't even wanna know the answer.
I never said anything about 'all' atheists behaving this way. Go back and read.
From my experiences (at least on the internet), it's not uncommon. And the ones like this are arrogant about it.
I think I have a fair degree of epistemological humility as an atheist (in fact the lack thereof is one of my criticisms of many Christians) but I have still been accused of various forms of arrogance and stupidity. If for example I mount a scientific argument, I might get a "you think you're so smart" sort of comeback ... or at least an implication that I'm embracing "mere" human wisdom rather than the august wisdom of the ages from the Bible, etc., or perhaps just grandstanding or something.
I think where this comes from is that Christians skate on thin ice when it comes to any sort of solid foundation for their beliefs and anyone who points that out in even the most gentle way, they perceive as haughty and superior. It's about the only way they can counter the leaks in their abstractions.
It's a very human thing -- you can see this with conspiracy theorists, too -- they think they have some airtight "gotcha" argument that is easily disposed of and in fact there's this thing called Google where they could easily vet their own notions in advance. A great example is, if the moon landing wasn't faked, who took the video of Armstrong descending the ladder to the lunar surface? Well, he pulled a lanyard that opened an equipment bay to which was bolted a video camera. I mean even if this wasn't readily verifiable common knowledge, asking such a loaded question assumes that the ONLY possibility is someone operating a studio camera.
In fairness, the assertions of the religious aren't THAT over the top, in that, ignoring things like young earth creationism when they are speaking about things they don't really understand and don't want to ... they are making claims that are unverifiable because they're about immaterial / invisible beings and realms; they aren't generally contradicting the intersubjective experience of the whole human race and the basis of applied science that they themselves benefit from, at least, in the way that a flat earther or moon landing conspiracist would. But they ARE just making unsubstantiatable assertions, and they know it on some level. So when you poke at that, however carefully, it just stirs up a hornet's nest. And they resent you, and demonize you for it.
I grew a thick skin around it a long time ago. In general though, my religious friends have not.
No. It has been perverted into you can do whatever you want and it doesn't matter so long as you believe and if you believe, then you're forgiven. That is not what the texts say, but that's how it's been perverted.
Except we are smarter on a number of different levels.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the Hebrew texts and the gospel texts than any of the x-tians here.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the history than they are.
I'm smarter because I'm more familiar with the archaeology than they are.
I'm smarter because I have studied the original source texts from which the Hebrew pre-history is derived.
I'm smarter because I have enough common sense to use the Stuttgart Bible (Codex Leningradis) instead of the King Joke Vision when studying Hebrew texts.
I'm smarter because I know the manuscripts from which the gospel texts are cobbled together.
At the most basic level, we're all smarter because we ask questions and believers refuse to ask questions, especially the hard questions for which they don't even wanna know the answer.
I would say you are more educated and knowledgeable and objective. You might be more intelligent, or you might just be getting more efficient use from a lesser intelligence than some random religious person you're engaging with. Religion does not just make smart people act dumb and/or discount facts, it encourages them to do so. We can run circles around them not so much because we're "smarter" or they're "dumber", than that they are working with one hand and one leg tied behind their back, and we aren't.
I would say you are more educated and knowledgeable and objective. You might be more intelligent, or you might just be getting more efficient use from a lesser intelligence than some random religious person you're engaging with. Religion does not just make smart people act dumb and/or discount facts, it encourages them to do so. We can run circles around them not so much because we're "smarter" or they're "dumber", than that they are working with one hand and one leg tied behind their back, and we aren't.
They are undoubtedly under handicap having to deny science, mordant. But in a way so are you not having a sufficient knowledge of the extant science that does accommodate the existence of God properly construed. It even supports some of the early speculations, insights, and beliefs of our ancestors. The mistake is pretending it is all inerrant and infallible or that it is all fiction or made-up nonsense. Neither position is objective or reasonable because they both unjustifiably proceed from an extreme view, IMO.
They are undoubtedly under handicap having to deny science, mordant. But in a way so are you not having a sufficient knowledge of the extant science that does accommodate the existence of God properly construed. It even supports some of the early speculations, insights, and beliefs of our ancestors. The mistake is pretending it is all inerrant and infallible or that it is all fiction or made-up nonsense. Neither position is objective or reasonable because they both unjustifiably proceed from an extreme view, IMO.
it is an "extreme view" to claim that believers "deny science." That claim is also neither "reasonable or objective."
it is an "extreme view" to claim that believers "deny science." That claim is also neither "reasonable or objective."
As detailed in a book about the Scopes Monkey trial I recently finished, The Trial of the Century by Gregg Jarrett, William Jennings Bryan did not totally deny science.
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