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This article from Christianity Today says the brand of atheism promoted by the "three horsemen" is fading, to be replaced by what CT regards as a more tolerant atheism.
Nevertheless, they concede that theism is on the decline, just the same.
I am not really willing to call the rhetoric of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al hyperbolic so much as frank and unvarnished ... I think what really distinguished them was their view that religion is a great evil and a problem that won't go away until religion does; hence, the need to crusade against it, to persuade people to abandon it inorganically rather than as a natural consequence of its own, quite substantial, limitations.
Personally, I see religion as more of a symptom and catalyst than a root cause. New Atheism, I think, tended to discount the actual root cause, which is the sloppy, undisciplined and untrained "reasoning" process of the default human, because New Atheism elevated the (supposedly) rational, objective, scientific mind in a way that isn't actionable in the real world because far too few people are un-married to various cognitive errors and biases so as to even rightly pursue it.
So IMO the real problem is a failure to teach critical thinking skills to children so that we end up with a crop of adults who aren't vulnerable to "woo", if you will. THEN we might start to make some sustainable, organic progress in human affairs. Until then ... people will mostly play old tapes in their heads, and continue to promote war, human and environmental exploitation, authoritarianism, etc.
It's a Gordian knot, though, because parents married to preconceptions and biases aren't going to allow their children to be divorced from them, so the chicken-and-egg reality is that something has to happen to truly humble adults and get them to acknowledge that their approach isn't working, accept the antidote, and pursue it for both themselves AND their children. And that's a tall, TALL order that probably requires some sort of painful existential crisis for humanity or some substantial portion of it. Yet such a crisis would probably tend to push people toward theism rather than away from it, because it short circuits the personal growth process with empty but comforting promises, which offers an easy escape from the hard work of personal growth and self-reflection.
I don't pretend to have the answer, but if New Atheism thought it would catch on and turn the tide of public opinion, it was either unrealistic or premature or overdetermined -- probably all three
The reason that "new atheism" has proliferated is because the archaic solutions to the questions of existence historically provided by religion have consistently proven to be insupportably ridiculous by 20th and 21st century empirical science which has consistently revealed that what was once considered to be supernatural in nature can now quite reliably be understood to be entirely natural occurrences. "New atheism" is the result an increasingly more accurate understanding of the way the universe functions, no supernatural cause required. That has not changed and is unlikely to change in the future.
over the break I had been watching Jame's may's 'manlab' for the first time. he did one bit on a ghosthunt. There have been some spoofy shows of that nature but this was done without any fake or scripting- I guessed. It showed that two going around together became antsy and even scared by imagination and unexplained noises (one was a flag flapping atop the tower). It shows how imagination acting on nerves can lead to all kinds of irrational fears.
We have to be skeptical and reserve judgement in these matters and anecdotal claims even if not fabricated (there is a lot of that, too) cannot be entertained as evidence of anything. Data for investigation, sure, but not evidence at the time. This is of course the NDE problem - they tried to rush us into accepting it as whatever they wanted to believe before we even knew what was doing it.
When I consider the "great American divide" we see in America today, between many millions of relatively informed and intelligent people who somehow see and hear the same thing, yet judge, conclude and believe very differently, I can't feel too confident "we humans" will even admit when our guesses are proven wrong.
There is so much behind this dynamic besides an "increasing data base of verified information" such that "anything goes" with all too many people. Ego among the primary reasons all too many of us are loath to even consider the possibility we might be wrong about something, let alone fairly and objectively investigate the possibility.
Where does this leave us?
Very concerned about our next presidential election for one thing...
The bottom light is that religion, to me, is basically brainwashing.
You're believing in a certain set of predetermined outcomes, then backing everything else in life to fit into those expected parameters.
Sometimes life doesn't neatly fit into boxes. Sometimes the objective reality runs counter to the theories you arrived at in advance.
Religion is in the process of dying because humankind is in the process of transitioning from the ancient propensity to make up answers and to then declare them to be true, to actually having empirically observed explanations. The age of wondering is ending. We have now moved well into the age of knowing.
Religion is in the process of dying because humankind is in the process of transitioning from the ancient propensity to make up answers and to then declare them to be true, to actually having empirically observed explanations. The age of wondering is ending. We have now moved well into the age of knowing.
I am not as optimistic about that as you.
Part of human nature is that "ancient propensity" you speak of. There's a small percentage of humanity that actually produces science that most of the sheeple happily and unironically consume in the form of technology, while still ignorant of science or even disbelieving it in favor of pet fables. But humans mostly don't govern themselves responsibly and are currently in the process of unwinding a century of social progress and may well end up unwinding several centuries of technological progress before all is said and done.
When humans screw the pooch enough, times will get tougher and that is fertile ground for religion. Religion will say our troubles aren't self inflicted and must be self-repaired; it will say god was angry with us and smote us and we have to beg him to forgive us and then make us worthy for him fix it, or satan got the upper hand and must be shooed away, or some such.
I'm starting to see history as a series of cycles like this, enlightenment followed by a fall basically.
That doesn't mean individuals can't transcend it, but I am not looking for humanity as a species to transcend it for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, if ever. One big problem is that the constrained circumstances produced by war and famine and pestilence and resource exhaustion may end up serving as a Great Filter beyond which few, maybe no one, can even pass.
Now that I've cheered you up, have a great day, lol.
Back when I used to do AA as a non believer we were kind of shunned because we couldn't really do the "higher power" other than to say that the "group" was the higher power.
Naturally, a lot of people in their had Jesus/God as their higher power and that God...along with AA of course... had delivered them from alcohol.
One of my friends said it best. He wasn't going to rely on Jesus to help him to stop drinking because Jesus is the one who drove him to drink in the first place.
He then went on to explain how the guilt and shame of not being able to measure up was an issue for him. Also, he mentioned how "having Jesus in his heart" didn't bring him the contentment that it was supposed to bring... and that he had to fake it.
If you wonder why so many rural folks are reaching for drugs when Jesus is so available to them? I think my friend Jack S. provided the answer.
When my friend was living in DC, he found an AA group in the Dupont Circle area that he said was majority atheist/agnostic. His sponsor identified as a pantheist, and the only issue my friend seemed to be having as an atheist was that he developed an unhealthy obsession with appeasing his sponsor. I became something of an unofficial secondary sponsor (and a very unlikely one at that, as though I supported my friend's efforts at sobriety, I was drinking pretty heavily during that period), as my friend would call me on a near-daily basis with long-winded reports about the latest AA drama. In his case, attendance was effective, as at last check, he's been sober for around a decade now. But there's got to be a better way.
When I got a DWI (later reduced to a DWAI), my lawyer, despite being an atheist himself, strongly advised me to attend AA meetings in the hopes that the (Christian, Republican) judge would look favorably upon me. I scoffed and refused. Partially as a result of that refusal, he and no fewer than three other lawyers at the firm told me that my best course of action was to agree to enlistment in 'DWI Court', which would've required wearing an ankle bracelet for six months along with a probation-like arrangement of having to regularly report to some overseer assigned to my case. The day before my one (virtual) court date in the summer of 2021, two lawyers from the firm called me and took their turns shouting at me to acquiesce to the DWI Court plan. Well, I'd had a friend ensnared in drug court for years, and I wanted nothing to do with the DWI analogue. So I held my ground against this schoolyard bullying tactic from my own representation, and calmly said, nope, we're taking this to bench trial. At my appearance the next day, when presented with my desire to take my case to trial, the judge countered with the opportunity to plead to a reduced charge, a far better outcome than DWI Court would've been. My 'primary' lawyer came back into the room where I was sitting with the good news: 'We called his bluff!', referencing the judge. My response: 'Nah, I called his bluff.' I still had to spend the following year (8/21-8/22) reporting to a local clinic for biweekly alcohol testing, but there was no debating that the outcome 'we'/I had achieved was best-case.
I'm pretty sure that entire law firm, a somewhat prominent one in Buffalo that typically takes on cases of much greater significance than DWIs (as my case slowly played out over the course of the first year and a half of the pandemic, I learned that the one partner, JIm Harrington, was representing a 9/11 conspirator detained at Guantanamo) thought pretty poorly of me by the end, hah. If so, the feeling was mutual.
But I've certainly learned my lesson regarding drinking and driving! That entire process was torture to endure...and, as previously stated, that was best-case scenario!
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 01-05-2024 at 08:19 AM..
Religion is in the process of dying because humankind is in the process of transitioning from the ancient propensity to make up answers and to then declare them to be true, to actually having empirically observed explanations. The age of wondering is ending. We have now moved well into the age of knowing.
I think you're basically right, although I would disagree that "we have now moved well into..."
Regardless the how and by how much, I don't think there is any good reason to dispute that religion/faith can and does positively affect mental health...
"What is more, congruent findings were determined by a 2015 review examining over 3000 scholarly articles for the International Journal of Emergency Mental Health and Human Resilience, which found a “positive effect” of religion/spirituality on a variety of health outcomes, including: “minor depression, faster recovery from depressive episodes, lower rates of suicide, less use, abuse and substance dependence, greater well-being, and self-reported happiness.”5 - Institute for Family Studies
Sure. If my goal or perspective was solely about feeling better, I might manage to be religious or spiritual too. Though as yet I don't know how to believe something without the rest of the criteria that is also important to me. Also, although I have no problem recognizing the positive effects of religion, it's not as if there are not a good many other ways to improve mental health. For example, here is just one of the many ways that work for me here where I live on a daily basis...
"We’ve long known that being in nature is good for our mental health. No matter where you live, it’s one of the best and most accessible ways to boost your mood. Even urban green spaces like parks and gardens have a measurable effect on our well-being.
However, research shows that blue spaces — water — are just as beneficial, with particular advantages for soothing a troubled mind and promoting a sense of relaxation. According to experts, if you’re in or near a body of water, you inherently feel calmer and more at ease.
Being by water has other effects on our internal state, too, that are useful for people dealing with stress, anxiety, depression and a number of other mental health concerns. If you’ve always felt better around a lake or the ocean, Sokya’s here to help you understand why." -- SOKYA
Living in close proximity to a body of water appears to have beneficial effects on longevity, too--see the 'blue zone' line of research. For me personally, sunlight and trees seem to help the destressing cause more than water, perhaps due to the fact that I've never been a particularly strong swimmer.
Religion is in the process of dying because humankind is in the process of transitioning from the ancient propensity to make up answers and to then declare them to be true, to actually having empirically observed explanations. The age of wondering is ending. We have now moved well into the age of knowing.
What I have otherwise often referred to as the "slow maturing of man."
Part of human nature is that "ancient propensity" you speak of. There's a small percentage of humanity that actually produces science that most of the sheeple happily and unironically consume in the form of technology, while still ignorant of science or even disbelieving it in favor of pet fables. But humans mostly don't govern themselves responsibly and are currently in the process of unwinding a century of social progress and may well end up unwinding several centuries of technological progress before all is said and done.
When humans screw the pooch enough, times will get tougher and that is fertile ground for religion. Religion will say our troubles aren't self inflicted and must be self-repaired; it will say god was angry with us and smote us and we have to beg him to forgive us and then make us worthy for him fix it, or satan got the upper hand and must be shooed away, or some such.
I'm starting to see history as a series of cycles like this, enlightenment followed by a fall basically.
That doesn't mean individuals can't transcend it, but I am not looking for humanity as a species to transcend it for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, if ever. One big problem is that the constrained circumstances produced by war and famine and pestilence and resource exhaustion may end up serving as a Great Filter beyond which few, maybe no one, can even pass.
Now that I've cheered you up, have a great day, lol.
Well we're at least not still offering human and animal sacrifices to the gods in order to appease them and/or to stop them from giving us troubles. Or is that maybe why we are having the problems we are having today?
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