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Yeah. Thing is, when human emotions are seen as a 'Chemical reaction' as the creationists like to deprecate evolved design as then wonder, awe and fascination are seen as part of the evolved animal character that makes humans what they are, and the theist argument that seeing it from a scientific/materialism point of view destroys all those feelings is false. All that is removed is the need for Mystery. The mystery exists, very often, but one does not feel...in fact Religious ...over it.
I have linked cult and theistthink before and argue that the apologetics for religion and Flying saucer belief (including the Daaniken cult) are much the same. I believe that humans have a religious instinct which isn't well understood (if it's even studied) but is common and probably an evolved survival instinct. And yet it's once we have to understand, like love, hate and morality as evolved instincts that had a survival use back in the day. I think religious (and cult) - Faith had such a purpose, but it no longer serves well as a controller; we have to understand it. Like fire, Instinct is a useful servant, but a bad master.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
By "Nah" I take it you mean "yeah" as you then go on to pretty much agree with what I posted. The 'Spiritual' feelings, (Love, awe, fascination, pathos) and the excitement of discovery indeed, cover a lot of ground, and can be applied selectively of course but not exclusively.
The elephant hanging about outside the room is of course the theist insistence that these feelings (like everything else) are to be ascribed and credited to 'god' (which is also blunderbuss, especially in how he deals with sinners (1) with the necessary assertion that understanding science will destroy the sense of awe wonder and excitement. Wrong, as it is there even more and not limited to 'it's a wonder of God'.
(1) "Kill them all! God will know his own"
I had to go back a couple of posts to make sure I understand you. Hope you don't mind.
Yes, I think what you're saying is that belief in God brings in a mystical element that maintains a sense of wonder. Once science steps in to explain it as a chemical reaction, then the sense of wonder loses its meaning. I do agree with you that doesn't have to be the case. We can say that it is a fact that feelings are a chemical reaction in the brain. But then we can also explore how it has been beneficial to humanity and why it is beneficial today and in the future. We can also explore when it is not beneficial. All of these things will depend on perspective and it allows us to live the life we want.
I had to go back a couple of posts to make sure I understand you. Hope you don't mind.
Yes, I think what you're saying is that belief in God brings in a mystical element that maintains a sense of wonder. Once science steps in to explain it as a chemical reaction, then the sense of wonder loses its meaning. I do agree with you that doesn't have to be the case. We can say that it is a fact that feelings are a chemical reaction in the brain. But then we can also explore how it has been beneficial to humanity and why it is beneficial today and in the future. We can also explore when it is not beneficial. All of these things will depend on perspective and it allows us to live the life we want.
Yes. Oddly this was a conundrum or problem in the original Startrek series with the character of Spock. The 'Straw Vulcan' term was invented to describe the flawed logic (the character was done by scriptwriters, not logicians) reflecting this popular human idea that understanding how something works removes all the wonder. The idea that understanding how things work removes a sense of beauty just as logic supposedly removes all emotion.
This can only be view of those who don't see that gaping ignorance is no substitute for understanding wonderment. If anything, knowing that the dots of light in the sky are our planets, the stars of our galaxy and even other galaxies beats the idea they are little lamps stuck by God on the inside of a crystal dome being cranked round by angels, or at least "I have no idea what it is, but it looks wonderful".
The popular (and false) idea that understanding ruins wonder just as understanding the instincts that drive us is going to turn us all into soulless Robots is the false idea of people that have never understood what things were or did not want to know (e.g for religious reasons) or had forgotten the things they had learned and now took them for granted. Like maybe those who do not know or care how airliners work and are not blown away by it, but it is just something to sit down in to get from A to B.
Hence my point re: three-ring circus, as I do agree ‘multiple posters’ have the same angry tone/mindset - all simultaneously attacking me on a personal level, rather than allowing/ignoring a fellow atheist to actually discuss a very common concept (in the real world), per the thread.
I have to admit I find this "three-ring circus" rather ridiculous and unnecessary too...
If atheists -- people -- can't simply answer the question posed in the title of this thread without all manner of personal mud-slinging, veering wildly from the topic at hand, then there's better places to "vent" whatever else anyone needs to vent. Best I can tell, there is some "history" between some people here that is clouding better judgement. Also an inclination to join in the food fight rather than focus on something else altogether. Either way, we can ALL do better than this.
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I had to go back a couple of posts to make sure I understand you. Hope you don't mind.
Yes, I think what you're saying is that belief in God brings in a mystical element that maintains a sense of wonder. Once science steps in to explain it as a chemical reaction, then the sense of wonder loses its meaning. I do agree with you that doesn't have to be the case. We can say that it is a fact that feelings are a chemical reaction in the brain. But then we can also explore how it has been beneficial to humanity and why it is beneficial today and in the future. We can also explore when it is not beneficial. All of these things will depend on perspective and it allows us to live the life we want.
TRANSPONDER
Yes. Oddly this was a conundrum or problem in the original Startrek series with the character of Spock. The 'Straw Vulcan' term was invented to describe the flawed logic (the character was done by scriptwriters, not logicians) reflecting this popular human idea that understanding how something works removes all the wonder. The idea that understanding how things work removes a sense of beauty just as logic supposedly removes all emotion.
This can only be view of those who don't see that gaping ignorance is no substitute for understanding wonderment. If anything, knowing that the dots of light in the sky are our planets, the stars of our galaxy and even other galaxies beats the idea they are little lamps stuck by God on the inside of a crystal dome being cranked round by angels, or at least "I have no idea what it is, but it looks wonderful".
The popular (and false) idea that understanding ruins wonder just as understanding the instincts that drive us is going to turn us all into soulless Robots is the false idea of people that have never understood what things were or did not want to know (e.g for religious reasons) or had forgotten the things they had learned and now took them for granted. Like maybe those who do not know or care how airliners work and are not blown away by it, but it is just something to sit down in to get from A to B.[/i]
No matter whether you believe in God or are an atheist, if you can't appreciate the "wonder of it all," I'm tempted to think there's something wrong with you, but instead I'll just say you're missing out.
This can't be what any of this argument is about though. Is it?
No matter whether you believe in God or are an atheist, if you can't appreciate the "wonder of it all," I'm tempted to think there's something wrong with you, but instead I'll just say you're missing out.
This can't be what any of this argument is about though. Is it?
Einstein once said, 'There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though everything is a miracle. The other is as if nothing is.' That's paraphrased, but it's essentially what he said. I am in the latter camp, and because of that, I find awe difficult to muster. Everything is theoretically explainable by science, even if practical limitations will forever preserve at least some mysteries. But those mysteries that remain will eventually be mere minutiae. Einstein himself advocated for harboring a sense of wonder about the world, but to the extent that I experience wonder, I mostly wonder at the impersonal, cruel-from-a-human-perspective nature of the universe. That's largely a matter of individual psychology. But when I hear people expressing quasi-religious reverence for the natural world, I quietly scoff at their naivete and take another sip of beer. Then when I've taken enough sips, I tend to verbalize my scornful incredulity.
Einstein once said, 'There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though everything is a miracle. The other is as if nothing is.'
Eh, IDK. When I drag my sorry touche out the back gate each morning to walk our two dogs, I can mainly feel the cold, the pain in my body, the tendency of the dogs to strain at leash, etc. Or I can notice the beautiful fall colors, the fact that I am still vertical and finding interest and enjoyment in significant swaths of my life, that my wife's convalescence from double knee replacement is progressing well, etc. It's all a matter of what filters you apply and what you pay more attention to. I don't think the fall colors have non-prosaic explanations but I can enjoy them aesthetically if I choose to. (Sometimes I think people overthink it and feel inadequate if they don't enjoy, e.g., pretty colored leaves on the level of some sort of ecstatic, almost out-of-body experience).
Also two things can be true at the same time. I can find my life disappointing and feel the loss of various now-foreclosed options in my life path that haven't gone as I'd hoped, at the same time that I can be grateful for the many privileges I enjoy, some of them unexpected and unsought after.
We do have freedom of speech, and particularly in this forum I presume people come here expecting some back and forth. If they don't, they're just plain dumb.
By ‘expecting some back and forth’, do you mean atheists should expect to be called a ‘theist-in-disguise’ and experience abusive verbal attacks from ‘multiple posters’ (and explicitly told we ‘deserve it’) for participating in a thread for atheists as an atheist? Yeah, right. That’s ‘just plain dumb’.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Ex lawyer? That explains a few things.
As one atheist to another, it doesn’t explain why you (continue to) make defamatory statements and implications rather than simply disagree with (or ignore) my point relative to the thread, lol.
By ‘expecting some back and forth’, do you mean atheists should expect to be called a ‘theist-in-disguise’ and experience abusive verbal attacks from ‘multiple posters’ (and explicitly told we ‘deserve it’) for participating in a thread for atheists as an atheist? Yeah, right. That’s ‘just plain dumb’.
As one atheist to another, it doesn’t explain why you (continue to) make defamatory statements and implications rather than simply disagree with (or ignore) my point relative to the thread, lol.
Remember Harry Truman? Remember his slogan? "If you can stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".
But to be frank, some of us see you as a tad bit of a bully yourself.
There are times that I think about posting something and then say to myself, "Well, maybe that's better left unsaid". If you would consider that sometimes, you wouldn't be prolonging what you feel is unpleasant.
No matter whether you believe in God or are an atheist, if you can't appreciate the "wonder of it all," I'm tempted to think there's something wrong with you, but instead I'll just say you're missing out.
This can't be what any of this argument is about though. Is it?
I think it is. It's about this innate sense of human wonder and associated emotions that we see as 'spiritual', because 'Spiritual' relates to much more than just religious feelings. I think I mentioned before that i don't see any discussions or results of research on this, but my idea is that these feelings have to be evolved instincts or there would be no need for them.
I think they are related to the instinct of curiosity, fear (of the unknown as a threat) and fellowship with the tribe and our place in it. Oh, and death,of course.
In Palaeolithic times, this was hardly distinguishable from any other tribe of apes, but with farming and herding (neolithic) and communities, like the first cities, relationships and interactions, needing laws and moral codes, and various bonding and reassurance activities like ceremonies, music and religion evolved out of the basic impulses.
I suspect we have 'magic' (or religion) as a way of expressing our wish to be in control of what we can't control. Cave painting being about hunting animals, Neolithic about predicting (if not controlling) the weather that affecting crops and the city religions that backed up law codes and rulership and attempts at control of nature from astrology and sacrifices to prophecy and revelations.
I think we are still pushed by the same instincts today, but we take them for granted - even think they are reliable. And i don't think they are properly understood.
There's the thing (indeed a theist apologetic) that understanding such things might eliminate them. That has been discussed - only by atheists as I recall, because of the Morality and 'No wonder without God' argument. It argues the idea that understanding our emotions does not eliminate them but allows us to use them, not let them use us.
Remember Harry Truman? Remember his slogan? "If you can stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".
But to be frank, some of us see you as a tad bit of a bully yourself.
There are times that I think about posting something and then say to myself, "Well, maybe that's better left unsaid". If you would consider that sometimes, you wouldn't be prolonging what you feel is unpleasant.
I would certainly prefer to identify what the actual problem is (letting law and Constitution deal with it is not enough to explain it) and we might address the discussion reasonably.
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as the creationists like to deprecate evolved design as 
then wonder, awe and fascination are seen as part of the evolved animal character that makes humans what they are, and the theist argument that seeing it from a scientific/materialism point of view destroys all those feelings is false. All that is removed is the need for Mystery. The mystery exists, very often, but one does not feel...in fact Religious ...over it. 
that humans have a religious instinct which isn't well understood (if it's even studied) but is common and probably an evolved survival instinct. And yet it's once we have to understand, like love, hate and morality as evolved instincts that had a survival use back in the day. I think religious (and cult) - Faith had such a purpose, but it no longer serves well as a controller; we have to understand it. Like fire, Instinct is a useful servant, but a bad master.
By "Nah" I take it you mean "yeah" as you then go on to pretty much agree with what I posted. The 'Spiritual' feelings, (Love, awe, fascination, pathos) and the excitement of discovery indeed, cover a lot of ground, and can be applied selectively of course but not exclusively. 
