Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
then do you seriously consider it "harassment" and "discrimination" when atheists (on this forum for instance) call believers delusional dishonest sheeple? and when they shame and ridicule theists for their faith?
that is a question for any atheists on the forum. do you think that making disparaging remarks, holding different views, holding bigoted views (such as those found in the opening post for instance) is harassment. is complaining about why you dislike religion harassment? is boasting about the superiority of atheism harassment? is disliking the presence of "those people" in your work place, in the neighborhood, at the potluck dinner, is that harassment?
the glaring disconnect and double standard is for an atheist to complain about how they are "viewed" as an atheist, and then turn right around and do the same thing disparaging those who believe differently than they do.
Are you seriously trying to equivocate message board culture to that of real life?
Yes, if I went down here to the corner convenience store and started railing about "dishonest sheeple" and ridiculed and shamed atheists for their faith... that would be weird. On a message board... not so much.
Just as if a Christian was expressing his faith out loud at the convenience store. That would be kind of weird. But on a message board. Not so much.
And as far as this most recent "gotcha" attempt of yours. You are basically claiming that if non believers rant and rave they are hypocrites... and if they don't rant and rave (in other words try and get along with believers) they are also hypocrites.
I would dare say that I live in the Bible Thumpiest part of the country relative to anyone on this board.
Living in a small town outside of on Oklahoma metro. Yes, I'm a hypocrite because I don't confront people or family about their belief. And it is not really being ostracized that is an issue. It is more that it just makes things uncomfortable for everyone.
So I take the "Santa Claus for grown ups" approach to dealing with religious types. Just shine them on if they get started on things. Generally I turn the conversation from belief/disbelief to one of doctrinal dispute simply because it makes me feel more comfortable and it is quite easy to do.
I would suspect that there are some atheist types that would lose respect for me due to my approach, while others would get a chuckle out of it. But considering that there aren't many atheists where I live directly.... and we have no way to really connect with each other... (Have to go to OKC for that). It is important to adapt.
To boil this down... I have to get along with people who are believers and extreme political conservatives to live where I live. So I do it how I see fit. And the funny thing is that I do it with no God or church who is judging me for my tactics.
But it wouldn't be any different here for anyone who was not a traditional Christian even if they were religious in some respect.
Are you seriously trying to equivocate message board culture to that of real life?
Yes, if I went down here to the corner convenience store and started railing about "dishonest sheeple" and ridiculed and shamed atheists for their faith... that would be weird. On a message board... not so much.
Just as if a Christian was expressing his faith out loud at the convenience store. That would be kind of weird. But on a message board. Not so much.
And as far as this most recent "gotcha" attempt of yours. You are basically claiming that if non believers rant and rave they are hypocrites... and if they don't rant and rave (in other words try and get along with believers) they are also hypocrites.
I would dare say that I live in the Bible Thumpiest part of the country relative to anyone on this board.
Living in a small town outside of on Oklahoma metro. Yes, I'm a hypocrite because I don't confront people or family about their belief. And it is not really being ostracized that is an issue. It is more that it just makes things uncomfortable for everyone.
So I take the "Santa Claus for grown ups" approach to dealing with religious types. Just shine them on if they get started on things. Generally I turn the conversation from belief/disbelief to one of doctrinal dispute simply because it makes me feel more comfortable and it is quite easy to do.
I would suspect that there are some atheist types that would lose respect for me due to my approach, while others would get a chuckle out of it. But considering that there aren't many atheists where I live directly.... and we have no way to really connect with each other... (Have to go to OKC for that). It is important to adapt.
To boil this down... I have to get along with people who are believers and extreme political conservatives to live where I live. So I do it how I see fit. And the funny thing is that I do it with no God or church who is judging me for my tactics.
But it wouldn't be any different here for anyone who was not a traditional Christian even if they were religious in some respect.
disparaging those who believe differently, is the same behavior whether it is done online or in person.
ridiculing and shaming others for their beliefs, is the identical same behavior whether it is done online or in person.
a person is responsible for their own behavior, (thought, speech, action, feelings) whether it is online or in person.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-24-2024 at 11:38 AM..
I am in rural Oklahoma in a very red town with a lot of churches. I don't tell anybody about being atheist outside of my close circle. I am not going to be like Penn Jillette and get a personalized "Atheist" license plate. I would probably be pretty much shunned by most if I did.
Lots of people here do not attend church. I would say its way under 50%. So its not like you stand out if people see your car in the driveway Sunday morning. And there are enough different churches that no one would have any idea if you attended or not. And no one has ever asked me directly about what I believe. And I am not volunteering anything. There is an atheist group in the college town near by. They have the word "humanist" in their name not atheist. I went to one meeting at a UU church and did not feel the need to join their group. Nice people but most if not all were previously religious and seemed preoccupied with proving wrong their past religious beliefs. I have never been religious. And don't want to spend time discussing the bible and its flaws. If I wanted to hear about the bible I would go to church. So not for me.
I've never been completely open about my nonbelief. I think the largest reason is not exactly the stigma, but that I don't want my parents to know. My parents are still religious, and I don't want them to be worried that their daughter is going to hell. They haven't pushed religion on me since my mid teens, so it's easy to keep to myself and not make it an issue.
With that said, I've never thought about the stigma from a societal level as I know I'm never revealing it to avoid hurting them. Nevertheless, I've always been completely open on forums like this and am open to almost all of my friends. The thing about my friend circle is that it's largely nonreligious. Despite living in one of the most religious states in the US, I somehow formed a circle of friends who turned out being largely nonreligious. I have only a few friends who are outwardly religious. Only one of them asked me which church I went to (a common stereotype of what people are supposed to ask where I live) and that was the first time I met her. I've never told her that I don't believe. I'm too nervous to have that conversation with her. She's a devout Christian, but NOTHING like the stereotypical authoritarian, hyper-political Christian in my area, so her belief does not get in the way of our friendship.
I agree that it feels like religion is much more in my face nowadays. I wouldn't care so much if it wasn't taking over the government and taking away my freedoms. I understand why Christians want to spread their belief, however when it comes to the government - we are a country founded on freedom of religion and thus I don't have to follow or believe their religion, so get out of our government!
then do you seriously consider it "harassment" and "discrimination" when atheists (on this forum for instance) call believers delusional dishonest sheeple?
If you look at the definition of delusion (a false fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence), it is obvious some religious people are delusional, although not in the clinical sense. Some of them are dishonest, asserting 'facts' without evidence, or evading responding to valid posts by making irrelevant comparisons with music and art. Some are just sheeple. This is also true for some atheists, but for you it would be in order to complain then.
And when religious people publicly post on an internet forum, is it harassment when another religious person disagrees with them? For you, no, that would be a meaningful discussion exploring different spiritual paths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
and when they shame and ridicule theists for their faith?
How often does that happen? For specific beliefs, maybe, do you not find the idea of a cooked fish being resurrected ridiculous? But how many religious people are ridiculed because they are religious believers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
that is a question for any atheists on the forum. do you think that making disparaging remarks, holding different views, holding bigoted views (such as those found in the opening post for instance) is harassment. is complaining about why you dislike religion harassment? is boasting about the superiority of atheism harassment? is disliking the presence of "those people" in your work place, in the neighborhood, at the potluck dinner, is that harassment?
You have an amazing ability to see things in posts that no one has written. Complaining on an internet forum is not harassment, nor is pointing out the increase religion plays in your country bigoted. You just so not like it because the complaint is about religion, and you are against that (until the people in power try to stop you from following your religious beliefs).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
the glaring disconnect and double standard is for an atheist to complain about how they are "viewed" as an atheist, and then turn right around and do the same thing disparaging those who believe differently than they do.
Is it not dishonest and bigoted to take what different atheists have said (sometimes out of context), and then pretend this applies to all atheists?
and phrases used in the span of this short thread thus far, by atheists describing believers: "religious idiots" "dumber than a bag of rocks and deserve to be called out" "related ridiculousness" "they aren't good at logic" "their ideas are stupid"
it is fascinating to read and observe this.
You are reading and opining in a Atheist/Agnostic sub forum and complaining that comments are being posted that you don't like? Seriously? And why are you here?
People should be able to speak freely here and as long as they are following the forum rules not need to censor themselves as to offend a wayward religious person. Now if an atheist goes into the regular christianity forum and trash talks believers there. That is out of line. It would be like walking into a church and calling those inside names. Because again if people get together either online or in person to discuss a particular topic should be able to do so freely and not worry about someone crashing the party with their own agenda. Or worry about offending them.
Its pretty simple. If you don't like what you read here. Stay away. However seems like you are here just to stir things up.
You are reading and opining in a Atheist/Agnostic sub forum and complaining that comments are being posted that you don't like? Seriously? And why are you here?
People should be able to speak freely here and as long as they are following the forum rules not need to censor themselves as to offend a wayward religious person. Now if an atheist goes into the regular christianity forum and trash talks believers there. That is out of line. It would be like walking into a church and calling those inside names. Because again if people get together either online or in person to discuss a particular topic should be able to do so freely and not worry about someone crashing the party with their own agenda. Or worry about offending them.
Its pretty simple. If you don't like what you read here. Stay away. However seems like you are here just to stir things up.
I'm glad you mentioned this. For the very reasons that you mention here, I don't go up to the christianity part of the forum and read or post. Maybe 2 or 3 times (literally) in the years I have been on this forum, and then because someone suggested I go there and look at a post. But 99%+ of the time I don't even go up there.
You are reading and opining in a Atheist/Agnostic sub forum and complaining that comments are being posted that you don't like? Seriously? And why are you here?
People should be able to speak freely here and as long as they are following the forum rules not need to censor themselves as to offend a wayward religious person. Now if an atheist goes into the regular christianity forum and trash talks believers there. That is out of line. It would be like walking into a church and calling those inside names. Because again if people get together either online or in person to discuss a particular topic should be able to do so freely and not worry about someone crashing the party with their own agenda. Or worry about offending them.
Its pretty simple. If you don't like what you read here. Stay away. However seems like you are here just to stir things up.
Thanks, I was thinking exactly the same thing.
20 posts in this thread alone.
Tzaph spends all her time criticizing atheism, and in this thread it's mostly lecturing everyone about not worrying about what people think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
view described above demonstrates being influenced or affected by "what other people think of you."
which is not "thinking for yourself."
(generic "you" --- not talking about any specific person)
Yet almost never shares their own beliefs.
Tzaph has been on here for years and I bet most posters have no idea what religion she is.
I don't go on the other sub forums criticising others. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've visited the Christianity, Judaism and Buddism sub-forums.
The Pagan forum is fun to visit because the people on there talk about day to day stuff. It's very laid back.
I used to visit the Islam forum years ago because there was a super interesting poster that used to moderate that forum, since passed away. Learned a lot from him. Mostly how to be nice to people that disagree with you.
I feel like the other sub-forums are a space that people can talk in depth about their particular area of interest.
But it's a free country with free speech and Tzaph can do what she likes. I just find the motivation odd.
It reminds me of that Ricky Gervais joke from his Humanity tour:
Quote:
That’s like going into a town square, seeing a big noticeboard saying: “Guitar lessons”,
and you go,
“But I don’t ****ing want guitar lessons!” What’s this? There’s a number here. Right, call that. Are you giving guitar lessons? I don’t ****ing want any!
Fine! It’s not for you, then. Just walk away. Don’t worry about it.
You are reading and opining in a Atheist/Agnostic sub forum and complaining that comments are being posted that you don't like? Seriously? And why are you here?
People should be able to speak freely here and as long as they are following the forum rules not need to censor themselves as to offend a wayward religious person. Now if an atheist goes into the regular christianity forum and trash talks believers there. That is out of line. It would be like walking into a church and calling those inside names. Because again if people get together either online or in person to discuss a particular topic should be able to do so freely and not worry about someone crashing the party with their own agenda. Or worry about offending them.
Its pretty simple. If you don't like what you read here. Stay away. However seems like you are here just to stir things up.
and if the author of the opening post does not like the music played in a sandwich shop, then he is free to eat elsewhere. If he does not like "those people" moving into his neighborhood, he is free to live elsewhere. if he does not like "those people" people in his work place then he is free to work elsewhere. if he does not like buildings being built and organizations existing, well good luck finding a place where buildings are not built and organizations do not exist.
yes. exactly.
people are free to have their own beliefs. that includes music, buildings, organizations, employees, workplaces, and neighborhoods.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-25-2024 at 09:53 AM..
It reminds me of that Ricky Gervais joke from his Humanity tour: Fine! It’s not for you, then. Just walk away. Don’t worry about it.
that is an excellent response to the opening post itself. with regards to the complaints aired about music in a sandwich shop, buildings, organizations, workplace, advertisements, and "those people" in the neighborhood.
"Fine. it's not for you then. Just walk away. Don't worry about it."
Yes. That is exactly the point.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
