There's more than we will know now (hell, God, Buddhists)

[Heracles]

Originally Posted by b. frank

No. They get as much a free pass as you to do/think/believe whatever you want. Drive your own bus.

You'd have an argument if I were dictating their moral code to them. As long as religious people/institutions insist on taking Atheists (among others) to task for their beliefs while expecting the world to kindly refrain from criticizing them because it's a "personal decision" or "it's a matter of faith," I will not excuse them. This is not a matter of everyone merrily believing what they want. This is a matter of religious institutions seeking to marginalize or criminalize those who do not see things their way. Atheists, homosexuals, and members of other religions come to mind. I'll leave them alone when they leave me alone.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by Heracles

You'd have an argument if I were dictating their moral code to them.

My argument has nothing to do with that. I really don't care about anybody's moral code but my own.

As long as religious people/institutions insist on taking Atheists (among others) to task for their beliefs while expecting the world to kindly refrain from criticizing them because it's a "personal decision" or "it's a matter of faith," I will not excuse them.

Fine, don't excuse them. I like seeing religious beliefs, and especially actions based on those beliefs, criticized. I do it myself sometimes.

This is not a matter of everyone merrily believing what they want.

For me it is. Of course, the level of merriment is up to the individual.

This is a matter of religious institutions seeking to marginalize or criminalize those who do not see things their way. Atheists, homosexuals, and members of other religions come to mind. I'll leave them alone when they leave me alone.

Have at it. I'll be leaving everybody alone in the meantime. Good luck with your crusade (that's not sarcasm) just don't expect everybody who doesn't believe in God to be onboard.

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by Heracles

"And that's the bottom line, isn't it?"

I don't think it is the bottom line, Fullback32. I could make up any sort of harmful and untrue mythology that causes pain and heartache for the residents of Earth, but putting up with that pain and heartache simply because "nobody knows" is pretty foolish. The faithful have been driving the bus using a roadmap only they can see for entirely too long while the rest of us are told it is improper to question or criticize them. No, if there is something out there, I want some proof. I want the faithful to show me anything that can not otherwise be explained by rational thinking and investigation into the natural world or I want them to quit making silly statements like "I know there is something out there." Everyone, quit giving the faithful a free pass for their foolishness.

I won't deny that religion has caused way more than its share of problems all over the world. There is no doubt of that. And it definitely isn't just the Christians or Muslims. Ask the Sikhs and Hindus. I also want whatever it is, if it is there at all, to reveal itself in a real way (No faith involved) and settle the question once and for all. That would be great. However, to date...nothing. John Lennon was right when he said, "And no religion too" in the song Imagine. But that is just imagining. I don't see faith going anywhere anytime soon. The reason I remain an agnostic, is because I really don't know.

As far as giving a free pass, well as for myself, I still believe in the First Amendment and will defend their right to believe as much as I will defend my right to not believe and question. A real fight against them would start when my religious rights gets infringed...and I don't just mean their proselytizing. I mean when my legal right is taken from me. Freedom of speech, right or wrong, allows them to say whatever they will...just as it allows me to criticize their faith.

[Heracles]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

As far as giving a free pass, well as for myself, I still believe in the First Amendment and will defend their right to believe as much as I will defend my right to not believe and question. A real fight against them would start when my religious rights gets infringed...and I don't just mean their proselytizing. I mean when my legal right is taken from me. Freedom of speech, right or wrong, allows them to say whatever they will...just as it allows me to criticize their faith.

Everyone's right to speak and believe what they wish is not in question here. But don't you see that those of faith want to be able to say whatever they want about the faithless citing their books and manuscripts as 'proof' that these things are so, while making their faith off limits to any sort of analysis or criticism - in affect restricting your speech? By a free pass I mean allowing faith to have this off limits status.
If people want to post on these sorts of forums that "they are atheists but they get along just fine with the faithful," or just view this as some sort of mental puzzle about faith and atheism, what else could they possibly add to a discussion about atheism and its natural friction with faith? I am concerned about the slow encroachment of religion into our shared institutions like government and schools, and how people of all beliefs don't seem to think this is problematic. I am concerned about the day when we no longer can engage in little feel good discussions about atheism because it is being used openly for true and harmful discrimination.
Yes, I fully support everyone's right to believe and say as they please, but when it comes to the faithful passing laws and enacting legislation to control my rights to not believe openly, there is a problem. I believe that time is upon us.

[Marodi]

Originally Posted by Heracles

Everyone's right to speak and believe what they wish is not in question here. But don't you see that those of faith want to be able to say whatever they want about the faithless citing their books and manuscripts as 'proof' that these things are so, while making their faith off limits to any sort of analysis or criticism - in affect restricting your speech? By a free pass I mean allowing faith to have this off limits status.
If people want to post on these sorts of forums that "they are atheists but they get along just fine with the faithful," or just view this as some sort of mental puzzle about faith and atheism, what else could they possibly add to a discussion about atheism and its natural friction with faith? I am concerned about the slow encroachment of religion into our shared institutions like government and schools, and how people of all beliefs don't seem to think this is problematic. I am concerned about the day when we no longer can engage in little feel good discussions about atheism because it is being used openly for true and harmful discrimination.
Yes, I fully support everyone's right to believe and say as they please, but when it comes to the faithful passing laws and enacting legislation to control my rights to not believe openly, there is a problem. I believe that time is upon us.

Militant atheism is by far the most destructive force against atheists. Far more destructive than any other religion, because as the militant atheists scream louder, all other atheists are grouped and discriminated against because of that small minority.

Sorta like Islamic Terrorists and Islam in general. Eventually the line gets blurry.

[chielgirl]

And like xians, too.


I've never heard of a militant buddhist, have you?

[Heracles]

Originally Posted by Marodi

Militant atheism is by far the most destructive force against atheists. Far more destructive than any other religion, because as the militant atheists scream louder, all other atheists are grouped and discriminated against because of that small minority.

Sorta like Islamic Terrorists and Islam in general. Eventually the line gets blurry.

Hmmm, well, if this is true, then what is a atheist to do about defending his right to not believe? If being vocal about one's intent to defend the right to not believe ends up making the faithful angry and increase their discriminatory stance, what should atheists do? I hope you don't mean that atheists should stand by quietly while their rights are undermined and they are even more fully marginalized.
In any case the term 'militant atheist' probably needs further definition. My goal is not to outlaw religion (as if anything like that were possible)...well, my goals might be better left for some other discussion for now.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by Heracles

what is a atheist to do about defending his right to not believe?

I'd start by simply not believing. If you feel a need to always be talking about or defending that, then feel free. If you don't feel free to do that, then maybe you should move - there are plenty of places where atheists aren't being oppressed.

I hope you don't mean that atheists should stand by quietly while their rights are undermined and they are even more fully marginalized.

How does marginalization become "more full"?
Anyway, I don't give a godamn about how people view atheism. Maybe I'm just lucky though - my rights are somehow intact.

Originally Posted by Heracles

If people want to post on these sorts of forums that "they are atheists but they get along just fine with the faithful," or just view this as some sort of mental puzzle about faith and atheism, what else could they possibly add to a discussion about atheism and its natural friction with faith?

That pretty much describes me. I'm not sure what I can add - what do you want? Natural friction between niche groups is just not very interesting to me, I guess. Also, what "sort of forum" is this?

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by Heracles

Yes, I fully support everyone's right to believe and say as they please, but when it comes to the faithful passing laws and enacting legislation to control my rights to not believe openly, there is a problem.

And I'll be right beside ya on that...that's where the fight will begin.

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

And like xians, too.


I've never heard of a militant buddhist, have you?

Whoa...no, not really. But I think I'd like to see one.