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The greater lesson for me on these posts is the totally irrational disdain secularists have for opposing points of view. Many of these people did not even know they were bashing a Christian.
I'm definitely not here to bash or insult anybody and I've had some interesting conversations with many of the religious people on this forum. My basic point of view is that rational thought and scientific inquiry are the only reliable means of understanding our lives and the universe we live in. I'm completely open to any kind of evidence that might lead me in any direction. My atheism is based on a total lack of evidence that there's a God, it's not some inner hostility towards religion. I also feel that the influence of religion in society is often very negative and it tends to polarize people into opposing groups if not outright war like we're seeing in many parts of the world. The track record of religion in human history doesn't paint a very pretty picture and my only crime is that I don't believe that any religion has a foundation that's based on reality.
You express your opinion very well Montanaguy and I accept your sincerity. Some of your peers could learn some manners. I got into it once with a 70 year old Psy. teacher once and he said to me, "If you come at me with fist doubled up that's the way I'm coming back" Respected him for that since I was just 21 and out of service. We are all a sum total of our own individual experiences with our individual levels of interpreting that experience. I don't claim to be the best but I'm good.
I agree with every bit of your post. The point about rational thought & scientific inquiry. I too consider myself almost at a point of disadvantage due to my respect for objectivity. I have found one man's objectivity is another man's subjectivity and sometimes one can't tell the difference. However scientific inquiry would tell you that to complete a hypothesis you must first test all the possibilites and retest them over and over until the result is duplicated to a point that it can be said to be a factual observation. Thus, my contention that to declare oneself an athiest is to reach a conclusion based upon the absence of more information than one could possibly fathom. Therefore it is a risky...risky...risky proposition to reach that conclusion. Doesn't mean I hate you for reaching that conclusion.
What I witnessed on the thread you started was much more than what we are discussing. It is the hilarious truth that people will blindly jump onto something based on a half baked perception of something they don't know a damned thing about. Salem witch trials come to mind. I would bet you that each and every one of those "pile on" respondents supported Al Gore for President. That is why I never ever want to see those people in power again. They are dangerous to say the least. Good discussion though. Have a good day.
I don't think being an atheist has a great stigma attached to it in Europe as we have become a lot more secular over the last 50 years but there is a religious element ( Christian, Muslim and otherwise) who does seem to look down on Atheism and tries to convert you back to what they think is "the right path". I was brought up in very Catholic schools and did have a spiritual quest as a teenager. I never felt anything and faith never came to me in any way, shape or form. I am still a deeply moral human being and I don't think one needs religion to have a moral compass. Religion is a deeply personal thing and if it makes people happy and give them comfort, then I am all for it as long as it does not infringe on my right NOT to believe.
good post Stretch.
Yo...Plade... thanks for the enlightenment.
PVX, never heard of Pascal's Wager, why don't you enlighten us?
Stretch, I could bridge my gap of science versus faith with the notion that 6-8-50,000 yrs ago a super intelligence gave us social construct to help us evolve or even placed us here. In my mind it is not even anti-Christian. Some of the Van Daniken concepts are plausible and as far as I am concerned will even fit with Jesus Christ.
I guess what I don't get is how Christians have become the brunt of so much hatred by the minority, many of which consider themselves the intelligentia. For my part, you could take the sum total of knowledge of 90% of the college professors in this country and you couldn't get one good read. NOnetheless they are in the position of power to lead the children down the path to nothingness. Maybe they are silently converting them to Buddhism?
good post Stretch.
Yo...Plade... thanks for the enlightenment.
PVX, never heard of Pascal's Wager, why don't you enlighten us?
I will step in. Blaise Pascal, the mathematician and philospher, came up with an argument for christanity that goes something like this....
I do not know if God exists or not. But if there is a god, and I do not believe, I go to hell. If there is a god, and I do believe, I go to heaven. If there is no god, it does not matter what I believe.
Since the consequences of hell are very, very dire, but the consequences of believing when there is no god is very minor, it makes logical sense to believe in god.
Pascal was pretty much using the minimax theory. Minimize your risk, maximize your benefit.
There are a few problems with Pascal's wager though. It presumes that god is the Christian God (trinity, etc), and that belief in the Crucifixion, divinity of Jesus, etc, is what is necessary for salvation. Pascal's wager does one no good if god is really Allah, or any of a number of other possible divinities. It also presumes that belief is something that one can turn on and off.
Speaking for myself, if I suddenly told you that I believed in (christian) god, I would be lying. I could try, but it would not be real.
I guess what I don't get is how Christians have become the brunt of so much hatred by the minority, many of which consider themselves the intelligentia. For my part, you could take the sum total of knowledge of 90% of the college professors in this country and you couldn't get one good read. NOnetheless they are in the position of power to lead the children down the path to nothingness. Maybe they are silently converting them to Buddhism?
Here is where I will start to differ with you. First, speaking of the minority, and what the minority feels and does and thinks, is not going to work. The minority would include, for example, Plad, myself, Montana and JerZ. Roughly in that order of conviction as to our non-compliance to christianity. Plad is a diehard atheist, self admittedly out to cause doubt amongst believers. I am a pretty strong atheist, eager for a good rough debate, ok with causing doubt in a believer if that happens, but that is not my goal. Montana seems to simply like the conversation and intellectual debate. JerZ is a non-christian theist. (Apologies to any if I have mischaracterized you). So, with that being said, how can you say that the minority monolithically carries any given opinion?
Secondly, speaking only for myself, I don't dislike christians. I do dislike it when christians attempt to impose their morality upon me through the political process. That does make me rather bitter.
Third, intelligensia, college professors, or as the right wing talking heads say with a snide voice, The Elite. Most professors couldn't care less if you read and understand what they have to say. You, and I, and 99% of the people out there, are not their target audience. They are doing research in highly esoteric fields. And that is ok with me. I don't need to read most of what they right. The fact that they come up with a few good ideas now and then, inventing the internet, methods of sustainable energy production, pharmaceuticals, economics, all that is good as far as I am concerned. Some will be atheists, more will be christians. So what?
Well, that's the way it goes. I thought I was the first to put it into perspective. Just like bottled water and air machines somebody beat me to it. Promise I never read anything like that. Makes sense to me. I understand your arguement though with respect to how that logic is targeted. But couldn't you apply that to any religion you believed in wherein there was a reward for belief?
I never was that great with math but I sorta resemble the statue of the guy sitting crouched with his fist under his chin. What's the name of that statue smart guy?
And you are correct. You can apply Pascal's Wager to any religion. For example, it would work for Norse mythology where you should die in battle to ensure yourself a place in Valhalla. Which, while not a 100% complete contradiction with the letter of Christianity, certainly violates the spirit.
So, do you believe in the crucifixion, or should you grab your sword and start killing people (I think almost anybody would qualify) so that you can be killed in action and drink beer with the Valkyries?
Montana seems to simply like the conversation and intellectual debate.
Not bad but I really am a die hard atheist. I've been that way all of my adult life. It probably doesn't come across that way because I'm really easy going and tend to get along with people who have different points of view. I just thought I'd point out that my atheism is a strongly held point of view.
Not bad but I really am a die hard atheist. I've been that way all of my adult life. It probably doesn't come across that way because I'm really easy going and tend to get along with people who have different points of view. I just thought I'd point out that my atheism is a strongly held point of view.
It does come through. As I have said before, I am also a strong atheist. I suppose I was really ranking us in terms of our missionary zeal and confrontational attitudes.
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