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Toll booth, excellent work. You clearly put a lot of time in to that.
I like the idea of the 10th street streetcar instead of North ave. It would provide connection to the beltline, piedmont park, the major residential/office/hotel areas in midtown, midtown MARTA station and the buses and tech trolley, Marg Mitchell house and treasury, GA Tech and Alexander Colloseum, and over to the growing West side.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing an east-west streetcar on BOTH 10th street and North Ave. I can dream! They're almost a mile apart, so they'd be drawing from different crowds and would serve different destinations. And the truth is the area around Ponce/North has a much higher residential density than 10th street area.
I do think your beltline alignment onto Moreland is a bad idea. Way too much traffic through there... it would go too slow. It also would miss the MARTA line. I suppose if you could somehow make a direct connection to the Inman Park station it might work.
There is a plan for BRT on Moreland, although I would think using that street for either is a bad idea.
5 Points is the only logical place for the terminal. The Gulch badley needs to be developed and since that is where the 2 stations where before than it makes sense to put it there.
If you look at other major cities many of them such as New york, Chicago, Philly, Boston, New orleans, etc they all have major train stations in there downtowns which make it easier not only for comuturs but for intericty travel as well.
The 5 points location will give a direct transfer to all 4 marta rail lines and is within walking distance of many major office centers in downtown and is only a short train ride to midtown and buckhead.
In fact some commuter rail lines from the north will stop in buck head and midtown while still continuing on to 5 points. You could build a station next to lenox marta that serves buckhead, and you can convert the current amtrak station into a commuter station that offers a short (hpoefully) streetcar ride to all the major midtown offfices.
And the most important reason why the MMPT should be built there is simply connection. You connect grta busses, intercity buses, amtrak, commuter trains, marta busses, and marta trains into one facility, you don't get that at any other location in atlanta.
Also can we give it a name, Saing MMPT is getting boring, my vote is for Union Station.
Forcing transfers loses 25-40% of passengers. Commuter rail needs to go to a key destination like downtown if at all possible.
Forcing transfers loses 25-40% of passengers. Commuter rail needs to go to a key destination like downtown if at all possible.
What if cutting that out cuts the expense by the same amount (which would sound about right IMO)? The cost per mile of running a new train line downtown would be very expensive compared to the economical mileage that can be added outside the city. While not ideal, it expands transit's reach which is the ultimate goal of an expansion IMO. In a perfect World, we could build 10 rail lines and not have to worry about finances, but unfortunately we have finite resources that must be balanced. This seems like a good area to compromise on.
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Originally Posted by gtcorndog
What if cutting that out cuts the expense by the same amount (which would sound about right IMO)? The cost per mile of running a new train line downtown would be very expensive compared to the economical mileage that can be added outside the city. While not ideal, it expands transit's reach which is the ultimate goal of an expansion IMO. In a perfect World, we could build 10 rail lines and not have to worry about finances, but unfortunately we have finite resources that must be balanced. This seems like a good area to compromise on.
There isn't actually a whole lot of new rail lines that need to be laid for commuter rail into Downtown. The main lines are already there and they just need to be rehabbed.
It amazes me that although it has only been 40 years since service stopped, very few people realize that the freight rail lines that snake through the city/metro all used to have passenger service too. The Norfolk-Southerns and CSXs of the world just turned them all into freight only lines and ended passenger service.
No other place in the Metro has the infrastructure in place that Downtown does to accommodate heavy passenger service, and to build it elsewhere would be prohibitively expensive/nonsensical. As much as people try to act as if Downtown isn't the center of the Metro, it isn't actually true.
What if cutting that out cuts the expense by the same amount (which would sound about right IMO)? The cost per mile of running a new train line downtown would be very expensive compared to the economical mileage that can be added outside the city. While not ideal, it expands transit's reach which is the ultimate goal of an expansion IMO. In a perfect World, we could build 10 rail lines and not have to worry about finances, but unfortunately we have finite resources that must be balanced. This seems like a good area to compromise on.
Yep. Plus, we'll probably see a solid percentage of riders transfer onto MARTA at Five Points anyways. It's between 2000 and 2500 feet to most of the major office buildings on Peachtree. I imagine a lot of people will take MARTA assuming a free transfer is involved.
Or you can think of it this way: assuming the cost per mile to build light rail into downtown is double the cost of building it way out in the suburbs/exurbs (which is probably conservative), you would either have the option of
(1) Lovejoy to Downtown
or
(2) Griffin to East Point
...for the same $$$ investment. And that's not factoring in the need for a train station in downtown which currently doesn't exist and will cost a lot.
But I'm not even that philosophical about it: I see the benefits of getting rail all the way downtown. I just think we need to build all the lines we possibly can as quickly as possible regardless of the fact that we don't have a station downtown quite yet.
There isn't actually a whole lot of new rail lines that need to be laid for commuter rail into Downtown. The main lines are already there and they just need to be rehabbed.
It amazes me that although it has only been 40 years since service stopped, very few people realize that the freight rail lines that snake through the city/metro all used to have passenger service too. The Norfolk-Southerns and CSXs of the world just turned them all into freight only lines and ended passenger service.
But these lines have become extremely congested with freight traffic, which is vital to Atlanta's economy. The freight railroads usually want a high degree of separation between passenger and freight traffic for liability reasons. Normally, they want to keep passenger traffic on secondary freight lines (where freight traffic can be served during off hours), or else keep the passenger traffic pretty well-segregated from the freight traffic (which means more tracks and signals and more $$$).
That's part of the reason Lovejoy was chosen in the first place: it lies on a less-used NS line, and is thus a lot more feasible to build. The CSX line to Fairburn, as well as the NS line to McDonough, are both very important freight lines that would have a difficult time adding any traffic. All three of these lines come together as they approach downtown.
I just think we need to build all the lines we possibly can as quickly as possible regardless of the fact that we don't have a station downtown quite yet.
This is where I'm at at this point, too. But that's part of why I'm a bit concerned about the transit list increasingly turning into a partial funding list of 20 projects rather than a list of fewer fully funded projects. Maybe I just don't trust the national climate enough here, as I fear federal matching for transit funding is going to be one of the major elements targeted by the Congressional SuperCommittee tasked with debt elimination.
But of course, the GA transit committee has to figure out how to put together a list that will get enough voters around the metro area to vote for it. So I see why they'd rather put a wider array of projects on the list. Oy, though. I think we just need to get a few key lines built sooner to get the ball rolling. (Especially when gas, building materials, and interest rates on loans are dirt cheap right now!)
But I'm not even that philosophical about it: I see the benefits of getting rail all the way downtown. I just think we need to build all the lines we possibly can as quickly as possible regardless of the fact that we don't have a station downtown quite yet.
There's a lot of truth in that. We've been dithering about this for literally 50 years -- it's time to simply put down some lines and let things start happening.
Many, many roads, bridges, rail lines, tunnels, etc., were started when planning, funding and surrounding development were far from complete. That's the way it is with infrastructure. You start with a little where you know it will work, and watch it build up from there.
Just today I was up at the lake checking on some property. We bought a little tract out there 30 years ago, and there was nothing around but a few dirt roads and a couple of gas stations that doubled as as bait shops. Today you turn off a 4 lane divided highway lined with shopping centers and just about every restaurant on the planet. Instead of dirt roads you wind through a couple of miles of paved roads and fancy walled subdivisions.
We just have to get started with SOMETHING! Thank goodness Atlanta had leaders back in the 60s and 70s who got off their cans and said, "Let's build this rail system and gigantic network of freeways." And so it was done.
I get the feeling that if it was today we'd still be jawboning about it.
Wow...thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Too many posts to quote, so I'll just reply person-by-person:
arjay57: That is an idea that could be explored. The catch is that it would require one more transfer for a lot of passengers--i.e., what if someone were commuting from Acworth to Decatur? The answer simply comes down to a cost-benefit analysis: Which would cost the region more, longer commuter rail lines, or losing X number of passengers per day? (All: Notice I said REGION. I am interested in the total economic effects, not just the price tag.)
waronxmas: The MMPT would not be right at Five Points--it would be in that are about a third of a mile to the west, in the triangle-shaped region between the freight rail lines. There really isn't anything of importance within that space, and the roads all bridge overhead, so it's simply a matter of whether they could fit the station in there.
testa50: That's pretty much what I had in mind for the Atlanta-Macon route. Do note, however, that the Columbus and Peachtree City routes would diverge right at that station, where the CSX line splits off to the south-southwest. But if you move your proposed platform just a couple hundred feet north, around where the existing pedestrian bridge is, then there might be enough room to switch tracks before they split off.
shivtim: Thank you. A streetcar on both 10th and North, eh? North Avenue definitely has the foot traffic, but would it fit in with the larger plan? Only a robust study could give us a clearer picture. And yes, if you take a super-close look at the Beltline east route just north of Little Five, it cuts right through a residential neighborhood, which would probably seal what little chance that line has left. That being said, there was a specific reason for the detour: It bypasses the four-lane section of Moreland and only joins it once it is up to six lanes.
testa50 (2): Yup, good call there. For those so wondering, here is the discussion regarding how in the world they're going to get the Beltline through the east-west MARTA line, the freight rail line, and--this is the big one, the freight yard.
StAubin: That could be one beneficial byproduct of the MMPT--or perhaps Union Station: Revitalization of that portion of downtown, west of Five Points (the area) and just south of Philips Arena. 'Cause it really needs some work. That said, I think you and I are thinking about a quarter of a mile difference in terms of location. I think right next to Five Points is too far east, because there is a lot less flexibility in terms of where to put both the tracks and the station.
JPD: See, that's my thinking. If someone's coming in from Gainesville and works in Chamblee, he or she could take the train to Oakcliff (NE of Doraville) and ride heavy rail just a couple stops. Someone taking a similar commute who works in Decatur could ride all the way in and then take heavy rail the rest of the way. Lines cut short would cost the second commuter another transfer, not to mention it would take longer to get all the way into downtown.
testa50 (3): Good point--if the Macon line were built first, or perhaps if it only went to Lovejoy to start, it just needs to hook up with heavy rail for now and let the MARTA lines take care of the rest. If you look back on the legend of my commuter rail map, you'll see that all the routes coming through that area have East Point--basically right there at the transit station--as a stop.
bu2: BRT on Moreland?? Link?
gtcorndog: Again, it's all back to that cost-benefit analysis: What is the marginal economic revenue of adding more riders from a longer route, vs. how much would that cost? I do not have the answer off the top of my head, nor do I know if such a study has been done.
arjay57 (2): Yes passengers would have to transfer, but the idea is to minimize the number of transfers. That's why a lot of people who lived up 400 who go to Hawks games and went to Thrashers games didn't take MARTA: Coming back, you had to transfer at Five Points, and then transfer AGAIN at Lindbergh. Seemed a lot simpler to just drive, even if parking lots are congested getting out of.
K-SawDude: The cost of what I laid out certainly has to be considered. It almost certainly runs into the billions, probably tens of billions. Even if we get back to a day and age where we didn't mind publicly-funded projects so long as they were feasible, we'd surely have to break this one down into segments. That's part of why, for example, that I suggested that Line 5 (black) might have to be put on the back burner.
arjay57 (3): And that's the thing. Whether it's the grand but hypothetical set of plans I have here, or the much smaller but actually-up-for-a-vote plan from the Regional Roundtable, we've gotta get this show on the road somehow. I have heard that the ARR would only solve 10% of our transportation needs; well hell, ten percent sounds a lot better than zero!
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Too many posts to quote, so I'll just reply person-by-person:
That being said, there was a specific reason for the detour: It bypasses the four-lane section of Moreland and only joins it once it is up to six lanes.
