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I mean think about it. People of lower incomes have been moving into higher income areas forever! Low income whites move to high income areas all the time, but no one pitches a fit. It just becomes a problem when that Pakistani family moves in, or that AA family or that Honduran family comes in.
Oh, I'm not so sure about that. I'm not suggesting that racial and social stereotypes are dead, but these days I think the situation has a great deal to do with how people actually behave. One of my brother-in-laws lives in area that has become amazingly diverse. 15 years ago it was all white but now there are lots of Hispanics, Asians, Muslims and blacks. He was greatly relieved when the redneck white couple next door finally moved out. He'd been feuding with them for years for making too much racket, not keeping their place up and letting their kids run wild. A very nice family from Mexico moved in and my BIL is quite happy.
I'd be just as irritated if I had white neighbors who pulled a pickup truck up in the yard and started blasting Hank, Jr. as I would if I had black neighbors who were booming T.I. We've had black, Asian, Indian, and Middle Eastern neighbors for years and never thought twice about it. Frankly their houses are nicer than our old dump and they are great people, so I'm delighted they're here.
At this stage of the game I think most people who live in a city like Atlanta and who are exposed to mass culture have to have moved race further down their list of concerns. What they don't want is obnoxiousness, crime, conduct that drags down the schools, parks or the community, or other crappy behavior. We're not color blind but we can get to where it doesn't matter if we just behave (and I include whites in that, too).
I wonder if there is any way to keep whites from running? What are they running from anyway?
I doubt seriously you can keep anyone from running but I bet this economy has sured slowed them down. I think the white flight pattern will hold for a couple of more years and then you will see it ramp up again as soon as the banks/government can come up with some new mortgage lending scheme that will allow everyone to borrow without meeting the stringent credit and downpayment criteria. I for one would love to move out of my school district, but am stuck until something turns around with the housing situation. Unfortunately I think a lot of people are in that predicament.
SupraScooby - Great Posts. I think your assessments are dead on. Metro ATL is still heavily segregated, though I can not imagine where people will continue to run to and still have reasonable commutes. Blacks continue to try to move into what are considered good school districts like Brookwood and Parkview and as someone else already pointed out, the test scores start to decline. I do not think this is a tax base problem. People believe the hype and assume they can put their child into a "good" school and not have to be heavily involved in the school and their child's school work. They obviously believe their children will simply be annointed with knowledge with no effort other than just moving to the high performing school district. The drop in test scores shows that this just does not happen. Pretty soon the property values decline, the areas becomes run down and the cycle continues from district to district, neighborhood to neighborhood.
I don't think y'all understand my arguments involving Lilburn and Parkview specifically.
My family is originally from here going back many generations. (White family) We saw white flight... we lived it. Granted I do admit I am young.
My parents and grandparents tell me stories from back in the day that a few black families would move on to a street and within 5 years 75% of the existing white families would move away. This is what was originally called white flight... at its most extreme example... and it happened in many areas of Atlanta, especially south Atlanta.
My problem is if you have an existing mostly white area... the only way for it to grow more diverse is for some white people to die out or move out over time. Anyone can then look at this picture analytically and say... well there are fewer white people here so it must be white flight. That isn't really fair... how else can the area grow more diverse. We have to look into the issue more of what is actually happening on the ground. It is simply not enough to just say... a community has fewer white people and more minorities over time.
I see black families move in and are received fairly well. I do not see people moving away like they would have a generation or 2 generations ago. More importantly... I see white families continuing to move into other houses in the area once it is well known that there are plenty of black, hispanic, and asian families in the area.
I'm not saying things are perfect, but if that isn't positive change then I don't know what is or what will ever be. You sure don't see this as much in other major cities like NYC, or detroit, or even Washington D.C. The NY Times Dot Density Map of the areas shows this from the same Census Data cited in the original story.
As far as the school arguments go... there is some truth here, but test scores declining at Parkview and Brookwood? They are still considered some of the best high schools in the state and someone is using it as an example of a white flight/declining area. Even if there is a small drop in test scores the school, its population, and surrounding land values are remaining fairly stable as things grow slowly more diverse. You can hardly call these schools that are having academic problems.
Even the links Supra provided for Parkview and Brookwood earlier in this thread from schooldigger.com rate them as 5 star schools that are among some of the best in the state that send most of their students on to college and this is while they are about 50% minorities. I think people are jumping the gun on the... schools decline just because it is 25% less white than it was a decade ago.
And don't get me wrong.. I admit I tend to shy away from mostly minority school districts assuming its mostly low-income for the same things we have seen in the past, but we can't use that as justification for believing a school will go down hill just because there is an uptick in the minority population. Most of the black, Hispanic, and Asian families in this community are still moving into houses that range from $200k-$600k. They aren't moving into cheap homes or apartments for the most part. They are moving into stable, established neighborhoods that have retained their value fairly well considering the currently economy.
But if someone is going to still argue white flight...... Then I am going to put it y'all to answer this question....one way or another
Where do you draw the line between calling something white flight and saying the different races are -starting- to get along better and therefore living near each other more often and integrating more? Because under both of these scenarios... in a majority white area... more white people have to leave/die out and more minorities have to move in... in a majority black area... the reverse.
People believe the hype and assume they can put their child into a "good" school and not have to be heavily involved in the school and their child's school work. They obviously believe their children will simply be annointed with knowledge with no effort other than just moving to the high performing school district. The drop in test scores shows that this just does not happen. Pretty soon the property values decline, the areas becomes run down and the cycle continues from district to district, neighborhood to neighborhood.
Its not the belief that their children will be anointed with knowledge, its the simple fact that school is better equipped to give their kids a quality education opposed to their other area. The kids are at least exposed to the better environment. But the thing is, these people (the parents usually the parent) are working multiple jobs, going to school, and raising kids on top of it (especially in the AA community) and usually its one person.
Below is a very good link which sites valid statistics and helps to explain the plight of the hypothetical single black AA mothers who rents a house in a white community.
Single Black Mothers: What are the Statistics? (http://www.suite101.com/content/single-black-mothers-what-are-the-statistics-a312340 - broken link)
Now as always, there will ALWAYS ALWAYS be an exception to this. However, when you look at the numbers and pair two and two it starts to make sense. Because essentially whats being IMPLIED (no one has said this so don't get defensive) are that AAs that move into white communities are lazy parents and their kids are consistently getting low scores because of their lack of involvement. This lack of involvement that one may see is not because of laziness, but a multi-layered issue that spurns from a complex socio-economic existence here in the United States. In the end, however, it is up to the AA community to address these issues and help reconcile these problems themselves. The white community should simply respect the fact that these problems actually exist because of REAL problems and do not assume it came from crude racial stereotypes that came from hundreds of years of ugliness.
Most of the black, Hispanic, and Asian families in this community are still moving into houses that range from $200k-$600k. They aren't moving into cheap homes or apartments for the most part. They are moving into stable, established neighborhoods that have retained their value fairly well considering the currently economy.
Good point
I was making a case for the renters, but what about those minorities who are established? Why move from them if they are the same economic boat as a white person? For the most part it isn't Shaniqwa or Jose, (those ghetto black or Hispanic stereotypes that our media perpetuates) But normal middle class Americans.
[quote=Listennow32;17195683]Its not the belief that their children will be anointed with knowledge, its the simple fact that school is better equipped to give their kids a quality education opposed to their other area. The kids are at least exposed to the better environment. But the thing is, these people (the parents usually the parent) are working multiple jobs, going to school, and raising kids on top of it (especially in the AA community) and usually its one person.
You make very valid points. I have always wondered if it was just the better equipped school versus just lazy/busy parents. I think in many cases it is a combination. I have an AA friend who moved her child from a school in one of the Gwinnett clusters to Brookwood Elementary this year. Her child was doing great in other school and is struggling mightily in Brookwood. She has talked with other parents from other nearby schools to compare curriculum and it appears that Brookwood uses an advanced curriculum and requires a lot of things that would be taught in higher grades. She complains about the vast amount and difficulty of the homework and if she was a lazy parent, her child would be failing miserably. He get's by fine with all her help but many parents simply do not have time or motivation to devote this much effort. That really makes me wonder if certain schools teach to the level of the majority of students. Apparently the school or teacher's have leeway in what they choose to cover. Those kids will be well prepared and should post higher CRCT scores as long as the parental involvement is there. It just remains to be seen if the excellent status of the school will hold up through transition.
I thought I'd read somewhere that "white flight" has been in a reverse trend in Atlanta over the last decade or so--i.e., whites are moving intown as higher numbers of minorities settle in the suburbs. These recent demographic shifts are resulting in even more ethnically mixed neighborhoods both ITP and OTP.
Is that not the case? It sounds like several people here are still claiming that 60s/70s style white flight (whites to the suburbs) is the current trend.
I thought I'd read somewhere that "white flight" has been in a reverse trend in Atlanta over the last decade or so--i.e., whites are moving intown as higher numbers of minorities settle in the suburbs. These recent demographic shifts are resulting in even more ethnically mixed neighborhoods both ITP and OTP.
Is that not the case? It sounds like several people here are still claiming that 60s/70s style white flight (whites to the suburbs) is the current trend.
White Flight is occurring in the suburbs.
Inner Suburbs--> Outer Suburbs, for the most part. A few may move "intown".
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Originally Posted by suprascooby22
North Cobb, mostly white, South Cobb majority minorty with the execption of Vinings.
I live in south Cobb. Whites are roughly 50% of Mableton, and a higher percentage of Smyrna. The City of Atlanta is majority minority. Look at the map link I provided.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Originally Posted by arjay57
I agree with much of your post but I don't think the decline of the schools is about lack of funding. That's because the taxes are collected across a much wider area, not just where specific schools are located. Take a look at the city of Atlanta, for instance. It's schools are over 80% black yet they are funded at the highest level in the state. Per pupil expenditures quadrupled as the system shifted from primarily white to primarily black. There has also been a massive investment in school infrastructure. So it's hard to say money is the problem.
I think a lack of work ethic and parental support is the main issue. My Dad would have KILLED me if I'd have dropped out of high school! I was taught from the time I was very young that it was absolutely critical for me to graduate from high school, and that my parents really wanted me to go to college just like my father did.
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